A few SchH. training/trial strategy questions (kinda long) - Page 4

cucciolone · #46 01-02-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramon
cucciolone,
Sorry for this thread digressing.

Oh Ramon, you're kidding, right? Digress away! My trainers are both a little on the taciturn side, so I'm always very curious and eager to follow threads like this. I'm all ears, baby!
It's always a pleasure. :)

Mattweiser · #47 01-03-2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramon
Keep in mind, I have a hard dog when it comes to protection. You might have to put him in the hospital before you make him run off the field.

Then why in the hell would you choose to fight with this type of dog?????

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramon
My helper handed me a stick to correct him while heeling, not while guarding. When I used it, it turned into a fight but I'm still okay. After that, my helper suggested I either use an e-collar or a sharpened prong. I went with the e-collar. Thanks to the Tritronics, I don't need the stick anymore. :)

Ramon, please understant that you will get into progressivly worse fights with him, if he is truely as tough as you say..

One question: what is so wrong with the concept of taking the conflict out of the equation?? why does it always have to be about force??? think about that one...

Ramon · #48 01-03-2003, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mattweiser
One question: what is so wrong with the concept of taking the conflict out of the equation?? why does it always have to be about force??? think about that one...

Since I've been answering all the questions, let me turn that around. Let's say you were handling that hard Malinois I described earlier. What would you do to clean him up? Is there some secret clicker/behavioral modification method I don't know about that will get the attention of a dog like that without force? That dog is already a national level SchIII. The owner/handler's goal is not to pass, his goal is perfection because the very top of the sport is the only thing he has left to achieve, so if you're going to clean up that dog, make him 100% clean. My dog's temperament isn't quite that hard, but he's up there. If someone has a secret way of making these kind of dogs comply without force, I'll pay you to come down here and show me (AFTER, you get my dog under complete control of course)! :D

By the way, ever since I got the Tritronics, no more fights. The wonders of electricity!

Judi W · #49 01-03-2003, 09:48 AM

I'm rather pressed for time, but I wanted to mention a couple of things for you to reflect upon.

One of my early mentors taught me that when using pain for compulsion (please note, compulsion can be implemented without applying pain) a trainer needs to be aware that in working with a very hard dog, you can simply teach the dog to absorb a higher and higher degree of pain and then where do you go???? At a certain point you perhaps end up going to the point of injury with the same results. It appears that is what has been described in a couple of the above posts with higher and higher levels of pain be applied and the dog working through it. Yes, pain infliction can be a shortcut but dog training should not be for the impatient. If the dog is so old that you have to get there fast, retire that dog and start over laying a better foundation. The results of using pain for compulsion can be seen on the field and is easily identified.

Regarding the retrieve whether taught with compulsion or motivation (depends upon the dog). I never teach the jump until I have a solid retrieve on the flat including the presentation to handler. Dogs form a mental video as to the work and I never want a dog going over a jump without turning and facing me with something in its mouth to return with. Schutzhund has the advantage of allowing for the double command (one to jump and one to fetch) so that makes it even easier if you have your solid flat retrieve.

Mattweiser · #50 01-03-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramon
What would you do to clean him up? Is there some secret clicker/behavioral modification method I don't know about that will get the attention of a dog like that without force?

is it a secret? no..

is it clicker/behavioral?? oh yes.. ;)

1st Ramon, I am unsure what exact behavior we are trying to clean up... is it in the blind, or during the heel??

Ramon · #51 01-03-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mattweiser
is it a secret? no..

is it clicker/behavioral?? oh yes.. ;)

1st Ramon, I am unsure what exact behavior we are trying to clean up... is it in the blind, or during the heel??

I'd like to hear any behavioral/motivational/positive suggestions anyone has for any aspect of Protection Sports that's normally taught through force. Believe it or not, I've actually tried a couple myself that have worked. In one of them a lot of force was still involved but greatly reduced. I know the bite is often used as a reward for certain behaviors. However, I know that the level of success varies greatly in the real world. Maybe we should start another thread?