A few SchH. training/trial strategy questions (kinda long)

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Ramon Our training director does remind me to verbally praise my dog after giving him sharp corrections during heeling, for instance, because he doesn't want my dog to shut down. He always tells me to relieve pressure during compulsive training.

That is exactly what I was talking about

Originally posted by Ramon I know, for instance, if you're doing compulsive heeling with sharp corrections for every little deviation and trying to mix it with clicker training, it doesn't work.

WHY????

Originally posted by Ramon Now that the dog associates heeling with unpleasantness, the clicker is no longer a motivational tool, it's just an annoyance.

No it is not, it is still a Conditioned Reinforcer (CR), always was, always will be unless you counter-condition him to think otherwise. Regardless of the severity of the correction, as long as food is still following the click, the CR remains a CR.....

He might have a lessened Response to the clicker, due to his stress/fear/nerves, but he will still view it as a reward, not an annoyance... since when are dogs annoyed by food??? :)

Do not misunderstand, you can stress a dog to the point that he won't accept a food reward, but that doesn't mean he doesn't ever want food again.... just that the particular situation was too much for him..and even the food was not enough to overcome his "issues". This might be what you are referring to above...

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by Ramon
my guess is that Michela's dog was taught a motivational retrieve because he runs past her and keeps the dumbbell.

We bought a regulation dumbell and set up a hurdle in our backyard. It's the first time we've ever put the jump and the dumbell retrieve together. I was concerned about him placing the dumbell correctly in his mouth, and about jumping back towards me instead of going around the hurdle. Most of the time he brought it back to me, but I didn't correct him for running off with it when he did- I guess I should put a stop to it, huh? Might become a habit.

[Mattweiser]

Michela,

you deffinately need to stop that running around with the dumbell...

if you don't want to "correct" him, block the "other" choices....set the jump up in the hallway (I know this may not be practical, but I think you get the point ;) )

[GenHannibal]

If you can't do what Mattweiser suggested, use a long line. Try to place the jump between two trees that are close together. If you don't have a spot where both sides can be blocked, then one side is fine and just have someone stand on the other side (not too close) Start him with the lowest level on the jump. Then as he begins to understand what you are asking of him, you can add another level. Having someone else help with the long line helps as well. Personally, I do not jump my dog at the highest level too much. A few times so that he gets the idea of how high to jump and then practice when preparing for a trial.

[Ramon]

Originally posted by Mattweiser

He might have a lessened Response to the clicker, due to his stress/fear/nerves, but he will still view it as a reward, not an annoyance... since when are dogs annoyed by food??? :)

If you ever saw my training director do compulsion, you'd see what I mean. The dog is stressed to the point where he doesn't think about getting a reward. He only thinks about how the heck he's gonna get out of being pronged or electrocuted. In the dog's immediate hierarchy of needs, the food thing is far from his mind.
Our trainer is one of those guys who applies a lot of stress then relieves it. I can't imagine using that style on any dog other than a GSD, although he did have some success with a Doberman. This Doberman hated tracking with a passion but he was easily at the Sch III level in Protection and Obedience. On his Sch A, I think he scored a 198 out of 200. On this Doberman's first Sch I attempt, he scored a ZERO in tracking. Then our trainer applied brute force to his tracking and a couple months later he scored an 80-something on the track. The dog has now been placed in a friend's home where he can live in peace. When our trainer went to visit him, the dog was stressed out as soon as he saw him at the door and very happy to see him leave.
That's not exactly my style. My dog couldn't handle the pressure. When our trainer trains certain dogs, it's not a pretty picture, but the bottom line is that it works for him, and it works for a lot of other trainers in the sport, too. I don't do things exactly the way he does, but I take in the knowledge that's beneficial to me. That's also the philosophy of most of the people in our club. In fact, most our dogs have learned the retrieve motivationally, and some of our members use the clicker quite a bit.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Ramon
If you ever saw my training director do compulsion, you'd see what I mean. The dog is stressed to the point where he doesn't think about getting a reward. He only thinks about how the heck he's gonna get out of being pronged or electrocuted. In the dog's immediate hierarchy of needs, the food thing is far from his mind.

Ramon, I am with you.. did you read the last section of my post?

Originally posted by Me
Do not misunderstand, you can stress a dog to the point that he won't accept a food reward, but that doesn't mean he doesn't ever want food again.... just that the particular situation was too much for him..and even the food was not enough to overcome his "issues". This might be what you are referring to above...

there is no question that stress can override a dog's desire to eat, but that in no way means that the "reward" is annoying, just not of substantial value to relieve the stress. In these instances, only a higher value reward will do, sometimes that can only be the removal of the origional stressor.

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
you deffinately need to stop that running around with the dumbell...

Ooops! And there I was not even asking him to bring it back to me. I was just asking him to get it and jump with it.

Well, how about this: "Hup" "Fetch" "Hup", then "Here"- treat in hand- hopefully automatic sit- "Leave it" and dumbell-for-treat exchange.

I remember Judi writing that she teaches a motivational retrieve, and then at the end of it she inserts "Oh by the way, you have no choice." I guess we should be working on leash for this? I wasn't. teehee.

[cucciolone]

Wow Ramon, that's quite a story. I can't really imagine my training director doing this with my dog. A few weeks ago we were doing compulsive heeling through group and the director wasn't happy with the hardness of the corrections I was giving, so he stood to my right and took the leash, gave a hard correction, and my dog stepped towards him and snarled. It's interesting that you say he only uses these methods on GSDs and the one Doberman. I've never seen a dog worked like that before.

[Ramon]

Originally posted by cucciolone
It's interesting that you say he only uses these methods on GSDs and the one Doberman.

That's not what I meant. He uses these methods on any dog. I'm just saying that the breed that seems to cope with it best is the GSD. He will get a feel for how much stress a dog can take and take it from there. He recognizes that not all the dogs in our club can take the kind of stress he wants to apply, so he actually works with us to relieve stress when it's appropriate.
If a dog snarled at him for giving a hard correction, his solution would either be a hard stick hit to the side of the head or extra juice on the e-collar. One thing I do agree with is that the dog has to know who's boss. If your dog ever snarls at you for giving a hard correction, you have to stop that behavior quickly so he doesn't get in the habit. After that, you might want to reconsider what you just did. For some dog and handler teams, it's a not a good idea to bring out handler aggression in the dog, especially if the handler is not the "fighting" type. However, if it does happen, you can't back down.

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by Ramon
If a dog snarled at him for giving a hard correction, his solution would either be a hard stick hit to the side of the head

Really?? Please excuse my ignorance, but how does something like that not turn into a fight?

The only time I experienced anything close to handler aggression on the field was a looong time ago, we were practicing sits in the snow. My dog didn't want his precious behind to get cold and wet, and he refused. When I gave him a correction, he turned his head around and made an irritated "pi$$ off!" vocalization at me. My trainer had me string him up until he complied. It hasn't happened- to me- again.

[GenHannibal]

I guess we should be working on leash for this? I wasn't. teehee.

Yup! That would be the case.;) Only until he is good on a long line should you be doing it off leash. However, if you are just beginning to jump him with the dumbell in his mouth, you may need to just work him (on lead) in that mode (no sit in front) for several sessions. Do that until he understands the jump requirement. Work on the "sit in front" with dumbell on the flat retrieve. You don't want to do too much with the jump exercise.

[cucciolone]

GenHannibal-

OK, great! Thanks!!!

[Ramon]

Originally posted by cucciolone
Really?? Please excuse my ignorance, but how does something like that not turn into a fight?

You're right. It can turn into a fight. When it does, you have to win. If your dog actually has the temperament to put you in the hospital the first time it happens, then I guess he'll have a very short career. :D
My trainer is a big husky guy who doesn't take crap, so he always wins when he gets into it with his shepherds. If that doesn't describe you, then it's best to avoid getting into the situation.

[GenHannibal]

Fortunately, there aren't too many dogs you have to do that with. Unfortunately, there are too many people who are willing to go that far with any dog to accomplish their goals. That is where I have a problem with that type of training. I will have to say, that with my first Rottie, after we did the forced retrieve, he had a whole new respect for me!;) However, whenever he would even "hear" the trainer that assisted me.... (Even years later). The only thing the trainer would say is "ya better have a good hold of him!" That is one thing that Rotties have, is an excellent memory.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by GenHannibal
Fortunately, there aren't too many dogs you have to do that with. Unfortunately, there are too many people who are willing to go that far with any dog to accomplish their goals.

Actually... Very Very Few dogs that require that kind of handling.. I would say closer to None...

Ramon,
not to start a personal thread here, but I would question your trainer from a behavioral standpoint, as to why he believes that issuing stick hits to the head is an appropriate correction for handler aggression from a working dog. I would bet that any dog that your TD has "trained" could be run off a field with the right helper....