Drive inhibition..............

[Storm]

I have been amazed with a fairly old bitch at our club, she arrived there with no inclination whatsoever to do any sort of "attentive" obedience. Now a couple of months later the same dog is doing the most amazing heel work, driving at the handler like crazy. I could not believe how any dog could have had such " drive inhibitions". This really got me thinking............... how relative to our training are our dogs been activated or developed in accordance not only to the work at hand but moreso their genetic abilities relevant to their ages? The above dog started activating purely through re-imprinting new associations revolving around obedience work where previously the association was one of utmost displeasure. So are we getting out of our dogs the most that we are able? Where is that threshold? And what are we doing to form those correct associations in relation to drive development? Another example is a dog that does the most amazing protection work, in a matter of months this dog is ready for trial, from nothing.......yet on the obedience side there is no activation whatsoever, the dog does not make the connection between been out there, activating and channeling into a source of motivation and it definately has the ability. Seems so easy to understand that you wonder how on earth does the dog not get it? In the protection dogs unknowingly get rewarded in the incorrect drive/intensity by various helpers, the helpers are inconsistent and we wonder why the dog can't get into a groove. With the dog activating and channeling you can get the dog to do "anything" because he will do what ever to get what he wants as opposed to hammering the dog for "incorrectness", talking about the developmental stages. Yeah so next time your dogs gets out there take a deep look and wonder what is lying dormant or inhibited beneathe. So just how "in-tune" are we with our dogs? I've been working my rottie really "hard" these past few months and am amazed at how much the dog has to offer yet never delivered in the past, I can't believe it! Yet should I have continued as in the past this incredible noticeable change would never have surfaced. Wow where have I been?

[lblax]

your absolutly right!!!! ther is way to much cookie cutter training at schutzhund clubs trainers and helpers working each dog the same and they expect results you find what is fun for a particular dog and you unleash its ability

[Rottlva]

Storm, I have been really working towards the obedience ring with my boy. My biggest mistake had been making training a chore. Through some good words here on the forum and help with my trainers, we have gone to OK attention to EXCELLENT attention. I did nothing really.... I rewarded the attention with play and fun. The more we played the more he tuned into me. I used to use the prong and hotdog method and got half of what I am getting now. I can't speak of ShH work, but, in OB work the battle really comes down to seeing what your dog wants... The level of excitement is so deep when we work.... he just wants to do it well. I've also learned if you don't ask they won't offer. If they aren't doing well in learning something, try a different method! In many of our dogs there is unleashed talent waiting to be discovered. It is our responsibility to find it within them.

Your point is so well described. If only I had learned this years ago :)

[valdes43]

Shaping through satisfying drives for desired behaviors. That's what it's all about. ;)

[Storm]

Originally posted by valdes43
Shaping through satisfying drives for desired behaviors. That's what it's all about. ;)

Sure it is, sounds so simple! Yet so many people can't recognise firstly what a dog has to offer, secondly whether it has been developed in accordance with its ability/stage of training/age and lastly just plainly whether the dog is working on all four cylinders.................in the case of other dogs six-twelve cylinders!;) So it's obvious that the dog's ability to progress productively and positively through training once again depends on the ability of the trainer and their experience. Nothing new I guess, Just a slightly different analogy.

[valdes43]

You know what's funny? Once you start doing it this way and realize how easy it is to work WITH the dog, you want to smack yourself over the head for not doing it right from the beggining.

One of the biggest differences I see amongst great trainers and other trainers is that they are well educated. We all know experience is a must to become a good trainer but theoretical knowledge is extremely important also. It's not only about going out there and doing it. It's about hitting the books, networking, always checking out what the top trainers are doing and to find out WHY they are doing it (seminars), etc. Understanding the actual learning process.

You know it's funny you bring this thread up. Matt and I were talking about Ivan Balabanov's new video and how he named it "Obedience without Conflict". Well, technically I feel there is conflict because even if you use positive reinforcement techniques, before the dog understands what you are asking from him, he's in conflict, because he wants the reward you have real bad and is in conflict trying to figure what behavior he needs to offer you in order to get his reward. The end picture though (regardless if there being some aversive in the program) should be the dog's mindset just driving you to get his reward. Dog know's what he has to do to satisfy his need, he does it, gets paid and so there is no conflict (if the dog is just driving to get his reward). If the dog is constantly avoiding the aversive (what a force program will produce) then he's always in conflict. His insides say the want to do something but the fear of force inhibits him from doing it. 2 totally different pictures. Anyways, that was my interpretation of the title. We'll have to eventually ask Ivan to verify if that is what he meant.

[Mattweiser]

That is officially the first time my name was mentioned in the same context as Ivan!!! LMAO :D


seriously, another thought Valdes, is to think about your boy Emmitt, and what we did the last couple of weeks regarding his attention on you vs. the helper....

I woun't go into heavy details here (if someone is interested PM valdes43! ), but I would say that what you were doing was a little more conflict oriented than what you are doing now.

Also, in response to Storm,

I have a Mali pup, that is a prime example of learning to work with the dog, and make him a totally different dog.... He had no interest in general human interaction let alone playing, retrieving etc.... all it took was time, and alot of reading his desires, then channeling and shaping those emotions... now the guy is jumping up on my chest when he retrieves (helps that the ball on a string can double as a tug toy!! ;) ) becuase that is what he is genuinely interested in, not the retrieve portion... but I will work on that, bet on it

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Mattweiser

seriously, another thought Valdes, is to think about your boy Emmitt, and what we did the last couple of weeks regarding his attention on you vs. the helper....

I woun't go into heavy details here (if someone is interested PM valdes43! ), but I would say that what you were doing was a little more conflict oriented than what you are doing now.

Don't keep everyone in the dark bro.

The past couple of weeks we have not been working on attention. We've been working on silence. Good thing I'm the one telling him "packen". lol ;) You've not seen Emmit heel or give solid attention because we've been working on silence and on capping his leaky drive. Emmit can heel with attention in the bitework. pretty nice too. :) Initially, Yes, I was putting a little too much demand on having him give attention and be quiet by forcing the attention he knows too well and waiting for the silence. He wasn't grasping it so we went to just waiting until he was silent and giving him the bite for immediate silent responses. By default he just offered attention because he knew through me he could bite you. As we saw on the bite you gave him from the platz. In the future, since we were working on silence, as soon as he gets the full concept and has generalized it we can make sure he's focused on the helper from the down before he gets rewarded with a bite.

A definite good lesson on decreasing the variables when trying to introduce something new. I learn everyday!

[Storm]

Good points! Man I see so many dogs walk onto the field, in training, especially obedience and there is major conflict! The poor dog is channeling everywhere except where it is supposed to, unsureness shines through everywhere. Now if this dog just had a clear picture and channelled all its "emotions" in a controled fasion correctly....................wicked! Just something funny I was doing some recalls with my "puppy" the other night and he came in so fast, ball under the chin, that he hit me where you don't want to be hit! (Use your imagination!) Well the pain still rings in my body and at the moment was on the ground trying to get my breath! Now tonight I but could not help, once he was on his way in to reach down and protect the delicate areas. Roflmao! Well he thought this isn't your normal stance and sat there looking at me all funny, me there with ball under my chin giggleing away careful not to activate him with the fear of him taking my jaw off.............oh well every time he turns and heads in I feel the pain! LOL!:D

[ptremaine]

I did nothing really.... I rewarded the attention with play and fun. The more we played the more he tuned into me. I used to use the prong and hotdog method and got half of what I am getting now. I can't speak of ShH work, but, in OB work the battle really comes down to seeing what your dog wants... The level of excitement is so deep when we work.... he just wants to do it well. I've also learned if you don't ask they won't offer. If they aren't doing well in learning something, try a different method! In many of our dogs there is unleashed talent waiting to be discovered. It is our responsibility to find it within them.

This just dawned on me 2 weeks ago. I've been trying to keep my dog from bolting after prey - which is very much in abundance around here and where we walk for our daily exercise and fun sessions. I wasted all summer using a prong and standard obedience, focusing on the Down near the desired prey source, and having her focus on me rather than the prey. That sounds great until she's off lead. Then she focused on what she wanted, not me.

On a walk 2-3 weeks ago, I realized that while my dog intellectually knows she's not supposed to bolt after squirrels [which could mean leaping into a roadway], she can't ignore her drives. I figured out that I needed to positively channel this drive, to "join up" with my dog, and have some fun with it. I have NO CLUE if this goes against accepted wisdom [probably] but if my former method wasn't working, I figured, what the hell, try to join the dog and use the need/want as a reward for good behavior. Voila, it works.

I started out with her on a standard 6 foot lead. We'd come to the place where we normally find lots of squirrels and rabbits. I'd give the command to Leave It and have her Heel. She'd be turning her head and I'd be marching along, ignoring it. Then, instead, every 2nd time we'd see a squirrel, I'd give the "Wait" command, wherein she stands still and looks right at me for the next command. We'd both be very very still and quiet as she then was told "Okay" and she'd look at the squirrels/rabbits. I'd stand there with her for up to 5 minutes, dead still, dog completely focused on prey, in a semi-crouch at times, one paw bent. I'd quietly go to her and unsnap the lead, while she was still poised to leap. Then I'd say, "Go" and she'd burst into action. [this is NEVER near a street].

As our walks have progressed, I've been saying "Find them" as she keeps her nose to the ground, hunting for prey. At times, randomly, I'll say, "WAIT!" and "STOP" and sure enough, she immediately goes completely still, after looking at me for eye contact, and waits. For as long as I want. Amazing. THis is the dog who had no self control AT ALL only a month ago.

I've also decided to reward her other good work with me with a "squirrel hunt" - we're down to every 4th time we see one. Now she's off lead, able to freeze and wait. She'll Sit on command, Down or Wait while standing. I've begun to say "HEEL" and walk away - no reward other than the look at the prey.

I can't tell you all that I'm any expert by any means - I'm a real novice again [had my last big dog, a Giant Schnauzer, 5 yrs ago], so until I find a good club join, or local trainer who's not a pathetic headcase, I'll keep using my improvised methods.

I've also worked with the tug toy, every time, and taught "OUT", meaning release, and having her keep on the tug even when I exert pressure on her, push her head with other hand, body push her and "fight back" a little. She's come a long way from the dog I first brought home - who had no idea how to play, no obedience at all and no idea what prey was, and who didn't defend her territory [yard, home]. Now she's doing all this and more. Maybe I'm not such a pitiful excuse of an owner after all. I have a lot to learn and am more than willing, and considering my dog was on death row in a shelter back in April of this year, I'm more than pleased with her progress, intelligence and character.

:D

PT

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by valdes43


The past couple of weeks we have not been working on attention. We've been working on silence.

I think this is one of those "6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other" situations.. because silence is what we were "looking" for, but attention is what you ultimately got, right? this is deffiantely a semantical hair to split (not that we haven't been ther before!!! :) )

A definite good lesson on decreasing the variables when trying to introduce something new. I learn everyday!

We both do brother, if we weren't learning, we are wasting our dog's time!!!
sorry I bagged on you last night.. but we ended up going out for steaks when Carrie got home, so I was kinda glad I wussed out!!!! :D

[Storm]

ptremaine, Very nice analogy! What you described in your post depicts how one can utilize drive to get in control! The first thing that springs to mind is correction, although it does have its place but that's another topic on its own. So you have something that really activates the dog and that it channels into and via YOU, the situation is controlled with you been the mediator between drive, channeling and motivator. Now you will have to get a stuffed squirrel for obedience work! LOL! Ooooops hope there are no squirrel lovers out there. ;) But the main thing is to firstly create a favourable situation where the dog activates and channels and form the association between this attitude and the field, this makes training so enjoyable. IMO the dog once having this mindset should start loading even as you approach the field, driving you. Not only obedience but also protection and even in tracking but all relevant to the phase/task at hand!

[Storm]

Hey V43,

What dog you working at the moment?

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
I think this is one of those "6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other" situations.. because silence is what we were "looking" for, but attention is what you ultimately got, right? this is deffiantely a semantical hair to split (not that we haven't been ther before!!! :) )

We both do brother, if we weren't learning, we are wasting our dog's time!!!
sorry I bagged on you last night.. but we ended up going out for steaks when Carrie got home, so I was kinda glad I wussed out!!!! :D

Actually we were rewarding silence. Yes, we got attention but at times attention was there but the bite did not come until there was silence. Eventually we'll have to have him look away from me and still offer that same silence. Let's beat that dead horse bro! LOL :D

No prob about last night. Hope you can make it out tomorrow.

[TrinityRun]

<..he came in so fast, ball under the chin, that he hit me where you don't want to be hit! (Use your imagination!) Well the pain still rings in my body and at the moment was on the ground trying to get my breath! Now tonight I but could not help, once he was on his way in to reach down and protect the delicate areas. Roflmao!>

er, you mean Roflmbo, don't ya?

< me there with ball under my chin >

From the former impact?

Sorry...couldn't resist. :D