Need some new topics!!!

[Mattweiser]

how about this:

everyone talks about the ideal 50/50 mix of defense and prey...

knowing that the concept is a pipedream, which direction would you sway, and how far? or would you "go both ways"?? ;)

[Storm]

Definately more on the prey side with good depth/strength within the defense. With my dogs I will want to dig down to get it out at the relevant stage. If to high on the defense...............we know more likely more issues to work through. But Good nerve type is a must in relation to the drive ratio specified. High prey, strong nerved dogs have much more to offer in the more elevated stages of training (more desireable traits tend to evolve from these types of dogs with this genetic structure). I'll take four thanks where do I send my posting details to? :D

[TrinityRun]

Of course it depends on what you are looking for, sport, PP, pet, etc.

I'll take a more prey oriented dog myself as it's more conducive to my lifesytle and training skill. First and foremost, I gotta live with the dog and too much defense = too many bumps in the road in training and life for me. I want to have fun, not engage in daily battles. I need a dog that can still function successfully within a family group.

Just the same, defense is one of those traits that cannot be overlooked in breeding and gauging it in relation to the breeding partner is critical.

In a nutshell - I really don't like the extremes.

[sch1rot]

Need new topics??? kind of odd to me, seems like that is alot of the debate around here having to do with drives...one could just go back into the achieves to see. I understand your point, but we just had the USA Nationals...with a rott competing, the USRC Nationals...and just about nothing said. These are two very big events. I understand the whole adding new topics. It seems like there is more interest in this section on CGC and TT testing than Sch work....of course maybe that is just me.

Maybe some of the discussion should be more geared towards topics such as how to strengthen the rottweiler ranks. How to help others and bring more into the sport. We had 15 dogs at the USRC Sch Nationals, 1FH, 1 ABST, 3 BST's w/ 1 pullled. Now look at the USA Nationals 140 dogs! And that was just Sch3's!!!! Jeez....we dont even have anything other than a passing score and pronounced for the 1's and 2's to get qualified for the nationals. We only had 3 SchH 1's and 2 SchH2's. And Hell, at that pronounced to many judges is understood when the dog does not run off the field. How come these dogs in the breed tests failed? With just about everything geared towards show much much more than work. That is the basis of all the rottweiler clubs. Is there a way to fix it...or atleast bring up the working dog interest and entries? Yes, there are rottweilers out there with titles and people working hard and entering these events each year. I for one tip my hat off to them all. Granted on entry I do understand that location and timing along with finances just does not work out. But we have quite a few dogs in the USA with SchH titles advertised for studding....where are they if they have so much working drive?

I dunno, I guess with having a horrible day tracking put me in a negative mood.

[GenHannibal]

My opinion, is that trainers are not taking the time to make sure their dogs are trained. They rush through the foundation training and expect their dogs to perform well at the national level! Everyone wants to have their dog Sch III titled by the time they are two or three! Hell, I didn't start my dog in bite work until he was 18 mos. Rotties need that strong foundation in order for them to handle all the pressure that will be put on them as the training progresses.

When it comes to drive, I personally would prefer a dog with high prey drive that can handle going into defense when needed. Defensive rotts can be a real pain when demanding things from them on "your" terms:D

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Storm
Definately more on the prey side with good depth/strength within the defense. With my dogs I will want to dig down to get it out at the relevant stage. If to high on the defense...............we know more likely more issues to work through. But Good nerve type is a must in relation to the drive ratio specified. High prey, strong nerved dogs have much more to offer in the more elevated stages of training (more desireable traits tend to evolve from these types of dogs with this genetic structure).

I believe you hit it Storm.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by sch1rot
I understand the whole adding new topics. It seems like there is more interest in this section on CGC and TT testing than Sch work....of course maybe that is just me.

No Ron, it is not just you!! :)

btw, good to see you around the board again

since, I opened this post, I obviously had a certain viewpoint already in mind....

Storm,
you mentioned nerve depth, isn't that a part of defense... I know that when dog people talk about defense they are usually referring to the dog's defensive threshold, but isn't defensive depth also a part of the equation?

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
everyone talks about the ideal 50/50 mix of defense and prey...

Just to throw something new into the discussion. I do not see the point of putting an arbitary figure on the drives of a dog. What a want is a dog that has the ability to give me both when I need it. Lots of Prey or predatory when it is required and the ability to show defence as needed so that through training I can condition the dog to fight a person in confidence ("fight drive" if you like) to hit with high impact, to search for long periods and participate in a fight at the end. I see no advantage in my mental model seeing a dog as 50/50 prey/defence or 60/40, but rather that a dog has behaviors that I can model into what I want. I see no advantage no matter what you are looking to do with the dog in a dog that is deficient in one or the other. If a dog can only successfully work in prey then it is deficient in courage or rather a lack of fear and as such is not the ideal dog no matter what you are doing. Granted that such a dog may pass is SchH or other such sport if it is trained correctly, but it is never as good as a dog that can work strongly in both and switch as needed and thus take the fight to the man. All the great dogs with work in both.

However in saying all that I would also add give me a dog with high prey that shows true active or social aggression and you will get the above dog easily.

Mick.

[GenHannibal]

Mick

As usual, you put it into words better. Exactly what I was thinking and trying to say!

Mattweiser: so true, there are many who truly do not understand the concept of Schutzhund and the WORK involved. What it does for the betterment of our breeding program and the overall Rottweiler. This goes for other breeds as well.

[Mattweiser]

Mick,

glad to see you around again also.

what I was trying to get folks to talk about (not very clearly ;) ) is aside from your "ideal" dog..... what would be your satisfactory "second choice"??

would you lean more towards a "sharp civil" dog, or more towards a "prey monster"??

Believe me, I understand the nuances of drive, and nerve strength.. I am not trying to re-hash one of those discussions.. I was simply trying to foster some healthy open talk about what we like and look for in our dogs!!

[GenHannibal]

Well, now ya go into "how" sharp? What is your definition of "sharp"? Obviously, each handler views are different. Me, personally, I don't want to have a sharp dog that I have to battle every time I ask it to perform something it already knows. However, some sharpness can be a good thing, too. I would prefer a dog with intense prey drive mixed with good sound defense.

[Storm]

Matt, yeah as per my first post my choice of dog would be one with plenty of prey drive being its "first projection" out on the field, primarily to get in all that essential initial training. Obviously with experience and training the dog's outlook changes so we must look at the dog at the relevant stage. For example a dog is not going to come out at six months showing fight drive. So IMO the dog must primarily be very active within this drive (prey), this is not saying or creating a ratio between the drives but more rather a spectrum in which the dog operates with the other goods there when necesseary to be evoked and further associations to be formed (perfect scenario). Some dogs show defense respective to that threshold yet are not able to hold the drive, some dogs show defense at a very low threshold yet are strong within the drive, call it strong/true active aggression or whatever. Nerve sometimes brings about a highly defensive dog yet weak but in other instances a "defensive" dog but strong! So nerve is even further disected into various segments dictating dogs behaviors or their responses to induced stress and in a lot of cases the slightest form of stress. Oh man sometimes ya just gotta love those prey monsters they are just so GUTSY!!!! As for overly defensive dogs associated with "weak" nerve type I IMO have found them to be low on the prey side yet"defense" or more better termed as active aggression is more likely to be associated with higher levels of prey. Weak nerved dogs are always a pain in the ass to work, most likely you have to use pressure to get the dog on the sleeve, then you have problems with the stick, H&B the dog struggles as he is in high defense and to get a dog running hides in defense, well not so easy! Sharpnes again, a dog that switches easily one being defensive and the other response being more of an active one, so both dogs switch at low levels, for different reasons? What they do from there is what ultimately seperates them from eachother, so one has to look at the broader picture. A dog being defensive does not necessarily depict a weak dog.

[Mattweiser]

nice post Storm,

here is what prompted me to ask this question:

I have 2 dogs, one Rottweiler, one Mali

the Rottweiler is a 3.5 years old male. He has low to decent prey (better ball than sleeve) with a fairly low defensive threshold. His prey depth is decent, but his defensive depth is rather shallow (almost nonexistent). His primary response drive (if you like that phraseology ;) ) is prey... however comma when flipped into defense he doesn't have a whole lot in the tank...


Now, for the Mali...

quick background, I got him when he was 25 weeks old. He was completely and totally un-socialized.. he was still living with his littermates in a run.. having had little-to-no human contact. and absolutely no environmental/social experience. He comes from champion NVBK stock, and his lines are known for their sharpness, and high levels of active aggression (or fight, whatever ;) )

now, his (mali) prey drive is extensive (typical Mal) both low threshold and very deep in terms of drive, his defensive threshold is low, actually very low... but his primary response drive is defense. You could safely call him sharp :D . the only problem being his before-mentioned lack of environmental exposure, leans him towards the fear side of the world... which clearly explains his sharpness.... the main difference between the two dogs (besides the breed, and size difference) is that when he is in defense, he seems to have more there... as in, he has fight in him....I am not talking true defensive work (since he is only 11 months now, I have not pushed him there yet) but in a day to day setting....

it is interesting that you mentioned that you have experienced that the more prey a dog has, the stronger he seems in defense.. that is exactly what I am seeing also... :)


anyway, good discussion :)

[Storm]

Matt you lucky fish....I also want a Mali!;)

[Mattweiser]

what are you waiting for?

there are a ton of quality breedings out there right now!!!!

and the beauty of buying a Mal pup, is due to their overall lack of papers, they are relatively cheap (when compared to GSD and Rott pups)