Bandog?

[Homerhomer]

I would like to know what's poeple opinion on the whole bandog movemement.
On one hand many of us support ethical breeding for the betterment of the breed, there already are enough breeds around to fit anyone's needs and desires, and we have enough mutts running around.
On the other hand it seems to me that the whole bandog idea is to have a dog where function over form is the motto, and workability is the number one criteria (wasn't this the idea when all the breeds were created in the first place), the breeds we have now were mixed breeds at one point or another, and the gene pool is pretty much unlimited.

[Carina43]

Are you referring to the Neo/pitbull type crosses, or the mastiff /fighting breeds in general? I have seen the term bandog used several different ways, just curious...

From the little I've seen (of either type) in books & websites, way too many people are interested in this type of dog for the wrong reasons...just because they're big & tough looking. (Not that some of these breeds aren't really great looking dogs...) It seems to me that we don't really need any more big, hard dog breeds becoming popular.

[TrinityRun]

[quote]Originally posted by Homerhomer
[b]I would like to know what's poeple opinion on the whole bandog movemement. On one hand many of us support ethical breeding for the betterment of the breed, there already are enough breeds around to fit anyone's needs and desires, and we have enough mutts running around.>

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking either.

<On the other hand it seems to me that the whole bandog idea is to have a dog where function over form is the motto, and workability is the number one criteria (wasn't this the idea when all the breeds were created in the first place), the breeds we have now were mixed breeds at one point or another, and the gene pool is pretty much unlimited. >

Function over form (or vice versa) won't stand up in the long run - you'll just have great working dogs that don't resemble Rottweilers any more or great looking Rottweilers who cannot work. There has to be some balance or it will be nothing more than a Nottweiler.

[Muckdogs]

From what I know of bandogs, which isn't an astonishing amount, I don't have a problem with them. They are created for specific "functions" and form what I've seen, serve that purpose very well. As long as the dogs are in good homes and do not suffer cruelty or are involved in dogfighting, more power to them.

The mad scientist in me has often thought about cross breeding a sport dog. I'd love to breed my male to a high flying, full of prey, biting machine Mal or Dutch Shepard bitch. Probably be ugly as all get out, but who cares. Lord knows, I've got enough defense to even the spread.

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by TrinityRun


I'm not exactly sure what you are asking either.

The question is what is your opinion on the whole bandog idea.
Carina, I am referring to different crosses of mastiff and bull breeds.

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by Homerhomer

The question is what is your opinion on the whole bandog idea.
Carina, I am referring to different crosses of mastiff and bull breeds.

I don't see much point in it.

[Ramon]

Personally, I like the Bandog concept. What I think they are basically trying to get is the "ultimate" protection breed. They don't care so much about tracking and precise obedience like there is in Schutzhund. They want a protection-trainable dog that is the ultimate in overall physical ability: biting power, body strength, speed, stamina, gameness, etc. Some will argue that you don't need more physical ability than, say, a GSD, but others argue that some criminals have the capability of overpowering most protection dogs, and when it comes to personal protection there's no such thing as too much.
I think the Swinford Bandog (Neo/English Mastiff X Pitbull) had some promise, but since they reverted into ugly 60# pitbulls after about 5 generations, they never established themselves as a breed. The breeders have to keep adding mastiff blood to maintain size, so to me it's a failure. I think they have to go in another direction if they want to establish a true breed.
The American Bulldog seems to fit the mold pretty well, but most good AB breeders (the ones who aren't kennel blind) agree that AB's begin to lose athleticism and stamina when they get over 90-100 pounds. It would be nice to see that kind of ability in a larger dog. The Boerboel and Tosa can be athletic at a larger size, but I've heard that their temperaments are not consistently ideal for protection training. Maybe taking the most trainable individuals out of those breeds would be a way to go. The Presa Canario also has some potential. I don't know enough about them to comment but I've heard some good things.
The Irondog people are encouraging bandog people to use Irondog as a breed test (12-mile run, sprint, weight pull, hardest hitting, tug-of-war, hangtime). I'm training my AB for it, and I think he will do well, but I don't know if he will measure up to the dogs that are at the top of the sport.
I love my breed, but I also think it's a good idea to keep an open mind. It's always possible that something better will come along. I know there are enough breeds, but I don't think we've seen the "ultimate" protection breed yet.

[Storm]

I suppose if it wasn't for "experimenting", alot of todays breeds would not have existed. However I feel that there is enough out there to be improved on which is more then enough for every need, unfortunately with the "human element".............."bandog"? I dunno..................... There was a program on last week about pit dogs, so cruel and so sad! Gameness......................what the hell do you need this for in this day and age? What does it do for a breed that is so far into the gutters already? Sure some may argue it is necessary for maintaining that from where the breed originated, BUT for the sake of the breed CHANGE, breed for correct nerves, soundness both in temperament and structure and oodles of drive in the correct places, this way the dogs can get out there, work, compete and be portrayed in a positive light. What the hell does one want to achieve in this day and age with gameness????????? It has no place!

[Ramon]

Originally posted by Storm
breed for correct nerves, soundness both in temperament and structure and oodles of drive in the correct places

If you don't think the better examples of bull breeds don't have all that, you should see my AB. This morning he just caught a 200 pound feral boar, and this afternoon he just came home and played with the cats and the border collie mix I'm keeping for a friend. He is the most trustworthy dog around kids I've ever had. By comparison, the dog I had before him was a rottie from the best breeder I could find (parents both champions with working titles) and he litterally terrorized my wife, so we had to return him to the breeder when he was just a puppy. I'm not saying that all rotties are like that, but in my experience their temperaments aren't any better than the bull breeds.

Originally posted by Storm
What the hell does one want to achieve in this day and age with gameness????????? It has no place!

Without gameness, a dog will not go after a superior opponent. A wild boar is physically superior to my AB, yet my AB will risk his life to catch one so me and my friends can grab the boar by the hind legs. Several farmers have problems with feral hogs, so this is practical work that would be almost impossible without a dog.
I can see game being practical against a human opponent. A 300-pound muscular man on steroids and crack can be very formidable. Someone carrying a weapon can also be very formidable. A dog that will hang in there those precious few additional seconds can make a difference in certain situations.

[angrygenius]

I always found it alot easier to catch feral hogs with a bullet, than trying to grab one by the leg. Its a lot safer for man and dog alike. However, gameness is essential in a hunting dog, although if a bear or cat dog is too game it does'nt live very long. I don't see the point of adding another BMD to an already well populated list, but to each his or her own. I know that there are people in the world that think my Rotts should'nt be around either, right? JG

[Storm]

Ramon, lets get on the same page here! In this part of the world "gameness" is a term refered to as the willingness to engage into a dog fight, persevering until it is the "victor". Some pit people feel that their dogs must still be tested in order to maintain the breed. I have always liked pits very much but in todays times they have been trashed through irresponsible people, as with many other breeds. My point...................here you have a breed on the edge as it is, now you have these idiots screaming "gameness" footage shows two dogs mauling eachother and one guy shouting "bite the leg off", one dog has already shown it's superior yet they pull back the dogs, scratch and send them in again and again and again.......................... all the scum of the earth seems to get attracted by these peverted idiots, where is the gameness in this?????????????????? A good breed of dog, trashed in the eyes of everyone who sees this, yet if given the oppertunity in other areas, I am sure the breed can do excellent, portraying the breed in a possitive light! Getting back to my "misinterpreted" statement screw the "gameness", in this sense! What does it do for the breed?????????????? With other attributes in mind, people can make a difference. Sure "the better examples of" various breeds are out there, what about the weaker examples? No one is disputing the fact that each breed has its "better examples" this is obvious but lets look out for the dogs best interest, irrespective of the breed, which starts with producing dogs of quality and genetics allowing them to become positively integrated not only into the comunity but also into the working world etc.

[Storm]

Originally posted by Ramon
A dog that will hang in there those precious few additional seconds can make a difference in certain situations.

Or get the dog killed!

[Storm]

Originally posted by angrygenius
I always found it alot easier to catch feral hogs with a bullet, than trying to grab one by the leg.

LOL! I tend to agree, for obvious reasons. ;)

[Major]

Lets get back on to the original topic please.

I would like to know what's poeple opinion on the whole bandog movemement.

[Ramon]

Getting back on the Bandog movement; it's not about dog fighting. Unfortunately, there's going to be a few nutcases out there. Whenever you have a dog capable of winning dogfights, that's always going to happen. I don't advocate dog fighting, but to me these dogs have something to offer that you won't find in traditional guard breeds. To put a breed down because of the involvement of dogfighters is like putting the rottweiler down because of irresponsible owners. Some people think that the solution is to ban certain breeds, but I think that if Bandogs and Bull Breeds became extinct then the same people would just direct their cruel practices on rotties, dobermans, and shepherds and you would eventually come up with game dogs of a different breed. It wouldn't reduce the violence, it would just redirect it.
If we don't need more breeds, then why even breed Rottweilers, Dobermans, and Malinois when GSD's can already do it all? Then we should all have GSD's because anything more than that is unnecessary, right? Rotties and Malinois were bred to be guard dogs, at least in part because they offered something beyond the GSD's (rotties offered size and strength, mals offered agility, speed, and attitude). In my opinion, Bandogs can take protection to the next level.