Bandog?

[WorkinDogz]

IMHO ...... If breeders would breed for the "whole dog concept" (form AND function) then the Rottweiler, Malinois, GSD etc would absolutely serve the purpose as a protection capable working breed.... thus making Bandogs (and all the other "build a better working dog" breed UNNECESSARY).

I'm sorry....... but there are such few situations that a dog that BITES AT ALL won't stop a man (yeah yeah yeah.... go ahead and talk about the guy strung out on drugs blah blah blah).

In case anyone who hasn't been bitten by a dog wonders... it HURTS. It's PAINFUL. It's NOT FUN.

It usually is enough to STOP a person in their tracks because it HURTS.

I'm not going to get into the gameness thing and APBT's..... it's a heritage issue that I feel is important and has merit..... but to say you need to cross a Rottweiler with a Boxer to create a "better" (AmSchutz "breed" (HA) ) or a Tosa with a Rottweiler..... to achieve a working capable dog.... is just ridiculous.

I don't support cross breeding to achieve this. What I do support is breeders getting out there and working the dogs they breed..... and being man enough (or woman enough) to NOT breed a conformationally "perfect" dog that can't work.

Breed dogs that meet the breed standard in form and function and you don't need mutts with a fancy (Bandog) name.

[Leader]

HEAR HEAR

or is it

HERE HERE?

Regardless right on!

[Storm]

Originally posted by Ramon
..........but to me these dogs have something to offer that you won't find in traditional guard breeds. To put a breed down because of the involvement of dogfighters is like putting the rottweiler down because of irresponsible owners.

What do they have to offer that doesn't already exist within "conventional" breeds? The point with dogfighters is, IT PUTS THE BREED DOWN! Nothing like showing the country footage of dogs literally ripping eachother to pieces and then wonder why are people so sceptical about the breed? Sure sick people will always exist and divert their self gratifying ego elsewhere. This is the present we have the breeds available I do not know of any requirement that is not covered within a certain breed. Where are we going with our breeds? Check out the recent holocaust in Germany, in this day and age "bandogs" how will it take protection to the next level.........................? Jeez I mean I have had a couple of puncture wounds already from bouvs, GSD's collies and yeah man they all hurt, within a controlled environment, get that bouv on his home turf................I can't imagine a "next level" from that. ;)

[Storm]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
I don't support cross breeding to achieve this. Breed dogs that meet the breed standard in form and function and you don't need mutts with a fancy (Bandog) name.

[Ramon]

I find it ironic that Rottweiler people would be against the development of the Bandog. As a protection dog, what's a rottie's biggest advantage (and perhaps its only advantage) versus a GSD? To me, the answer is that the rottie can take the fight to a higher level. It can take on a more formidable opponent and end the fight quicker so the bad guy has less time to do anything. When people try to justify the rottie's use as a police dog, that's one of the things they bring up. Now other people are developing a breed with the intention of taking the fight to an even higher level. Why would a rottie person have a problem with this concept?
When you decided to get a rottie for protection work, why did you choose it over another breed?

[WorkinDogz]

Define "higher level" Ramon. In this age of lawsuits and Police K9 useage and use of force..... even "good" bites are under the microscope and damage that is inflicted being looked at .... what kind of power would you deem necessary to achieve that "higher level" and when would it be used???

Building searches?? Handler protection??? Tracking??? I don't know what additional gameness or power or higher level is needed when suspects are being apprehended using the "current" power???

Just what positives do bigger dogs (and considering the bigger guys mature slower in the head....) bring to the table to make their shorter lifespan as well as shorter working career worth passing up GSD's or Mals...or Rotties in favor of Bandogs????

[Ramon]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
Define "higher level" Ramon. In this age of lawsuits and Police K9 useage and use of force..... even "good" bites are under the microscope and damage that is inflicted being looked at .... what kind of power would you deem necessary to achieve that "higher level" and when would it be used???

Building searches?? Handler protection??? Tracking??? I don't know what additional gameness or power or higher level is needed when suspects are being apprehended using the "current" power???

Just what positives do bigger dogs (and considering the bigger guys mature slower in the head....) bring to the table to make their shorter lifespan as well as shorter working career worth passing up GSD's or Mals...or Rotties in favor of Bandogs????

You bring up some good points. To me, there's no such things as excessive if your life is being threatened, and if I'm in a situation where I have to sick my dog on someone, then my life is probably being threatened. That's also the answer to your last question. Here in Texas, if a man breaks into your house, it's your right to finish him off so he doesn't live to sue you for damages. It doesn't sound pretty to some people, but I sympathize more with the rights of the victims than the criminals.
These aren't the dogs you would pick for building searches and tracking. I would pick a GSD for that. It's not the Bandog's specialty. I don't have anything against breeding protection dogs for those tasks. I work my dog in Schutzhund myself.

[TrinityRun]

I'm going to post some snippets of a recent discussion with a fellow forum member. I was asked my opinion regarding using Shepherds vs Rottweilers in police work. I think some of the points I brought up there apply here. I apologize in advance if it appears to jump around - like I said, they're snippets.

One of the fundamental differences in the breed has been summed up by: "You say jump. A Shepherd says; "how high?" A Rottweiler will say; "why?"

Rottweilers typically take longer to train because they mature much slower in the head and body. That's ok but for service work, Shepherds are preferred mostly because their training is completed much sooner availing themselves for service or competition for many years to come whereas a Rottweiler typically matures out at 5 years old. That's a significant difference.

Another area of difference can be attributed to training methods. Handlers accustomed to training Shepherds one way, who switch to Rotties often run into problems. Too much compulsion in obedience training is not only likely to result in a poor performance in obedience, it is going to make training the protection phase much more difficult, if not impossible - especially in Rottweilers. Therefore, I feel Rottweilers require more out of a handler. Quite often your K9 handlers are not trainers (read not always). This requires them to have a more forgiving breed to work. They need a dog who can bounce back from ill timed corrections, unfairly administered ones, who can compensate for bumbling handler errors and still wag his tail and be compelled to try even harder the next time. (That is a universal trait in the GSD working lines that has, more than any other <in my opinion> served to propel the breed to the status it is.) It takes a remarkable dog to endure that kind of pressure in training and really speaks volumes to the breeds incredible versatility.

Have you ever seen a truly hard dog come back and voice his opinion about that last correction he received? It's not pretty. Can you imagine the kind of strength, skill and timing it would require to handle a dog who had his temperament deliberately tweaked to an even higher degree?

Anatomically, Shepherds are much more suited to the work. They have longer muzzles which are much more efficient at keeping them cool and more easily allow for a full 42 to come in. Their chest is deep and wide, allowing for full lung capacity. They are lighter - can be physically picked up and put through a small window 6' off the ground for a building search, or tunnel through narrow passages with greater ease than a Rottie. They are faster, have incredible ground covering gaits, have more stamina, are more agile than the average Rottweiler. Their coarse coats allow ample protection from cold climates. They handle the heat better than a Rottweiler. The true working Shepherd is, without question, one of the best all around, best breeds ever developed. There is just no disputing that.

You pound the $hit out of a GSD, he's likely to wag his tail and try harder. Do it to a Rottweiler and one of two things is likely to happen - either he will shut down on you or he's going to come back at you and "have a little chat." Once again, I can't imagine anyone wanting to bump up this trait a few notches! Everyone wants a "hard dog" right? But how FEW people 1) understand what that means and 2) can actually handle one the way it is right now - before you go mixing the genes? Can you imagine a plethora of truly civil dogs being available to the general public? Can you say sinking the last nail in the coffin, boys and girls?

To pay attention to conformation and ignore working ability (and vice versa) is to do a major disservice to the breed. The sad fact remains that the majority of Rottweiler breeders in this country do not agree on what constitutes "working" ability. The truth of breeding is that when working intensity and willingness are not given precedence in choosing breeding partners, it quickly disappears. That is a fact.

There just is no room for extremes in breeding, in my opinion.

[VillateV]

Originally posted by Ramon
I find it ironic that Rottweiler people would be against the development of the Bandog. As a protection dog, what's a rottie's biggest advantage (and perhaps its only advantage) versus a GSD? To me, the answer is that the rottie can take the fight to a higher level. It can take on a more formidable opponent and end the fight quicker so the bad guy has less time to do anything. When people try to justify the rottie's use as a police dog, that's one of the things they bring up. Now other people are developing a breed with the intention of taking the fight to an even higher level. Why would a rottie person have a problem with this concept?
When you decided to get a rottie for protection work, why did you choose it over another breed?

Ramon,

What is the bandog's specialty? By taking the fight to a higher level you are implying breeding a dog capable of mauling a person to death. Do you consider this a worthwhile breeding goal?

Since the Colosseum is now a historical ruin, where exactly do you see bandogs being applied for their intended purpose?

[Carina43]

Originally posted by VillateV

Since the Colosseum is now a historical ruin, where exactly do you see bandogs being applied for their intended purpose?

Hehe. This is what I was thinking, though VillateV put it better...
As far as bringing down feral pigs...is this really such a common need that we need a whole new breed of dog for it?

I was just leafing through a book at B&N called (I think) "Gladiator Dogs." This book did nothing more but glorify the biggest, toughest, gamest breeds - while the author had a cute little disclaimer on the flyleaf denouncing dog fighting, there was photo after photo of large mollosser type breeds & pseudo-breeds on heavy chains with huge fighting collars, running on treadmills, & doing bite-work. (Which come on - this is NOT "work" - it's a sport, perhaps a noble one & all, but still sport.) Anyhow, the whole big manly dog/fighting dog/strong tough dog culture certainly often seems to glorify the fioghting tradition of these breeds. Much like white suburban kids glorify & pretend to be gangstas in by dressing like them.

I really don't see the point, to be honest.

[Muckdogs]

I've followed a couple of different bandog sites on the net for the past few years. Never once did I see any reference to dog fighting, period. There is a lot of talk of gameness, toughness, etc., but not fighting. To imply in any manner that the bandog folks are involved in or advocate breeding for dogfighting is ridiculous. As far as practical uses for bandogs, there probably aren't too many. Highly doubtful that you will ever see a bandog as a PSD, but you never know. If the GSD world gets any more watered down, you just may. As far as a PPD, yup, I'd take a good bandog over the a good Rott anyday. But, the reason I don't is that regardless of what kind of dog it is, a .45 is ALWAYS better. And, I have my .45 with me a LOT more than I have my dog with me.

Finally, WD, yes, dog bites hurt a lot. But, I personally have witnessed at least 10-15 times (with different dogs and different agencies and different handlers) where a dog was released on someone and had it not been for the handler, the suspect would have killed the dog, hands down. And, not one time that I can recall were drugs involved. A PSD or PPD is not a be all end all.

Over and Out

[Ramon]

I'm getting a sense that the pot is calling the kettle black. The same people who condemn BSL lobbyists and the news media for their ignorance and irrational fear of rottweilers are now expressing the same fears for another dog. It's kind of amusing to me, really!

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by Ramon
I'm getting a sense that the pot is calling the kettle black. The same people who condemn BSL lobbyists and the news media for their ignorance and irrational fear of rottweilers are now expressing the same fears for another dog. It's kind of amusing to me, really!

I don't see a need to instensify temperament to the degree you seem to be suggesting - unless I've misunderstood you.

In fact, I find nothing amusing about it.

[Homerhomer]

When I started the thread I thought more poeple will have a problem with mixing breeds and not with dogs being intense.
Back to my hiding place, keep on going...

[Mattweiser]

OK... My turn ;)

there are clearly different lines of argumentation going on here, so I will address them seperately.

1. As for mixing breeds, I have no (ZERO) problem with mixing breeds, but then again I have a papered mixed-breed (A Malinois).... almost all Mal's are mixed to a degree, in fact many have GSD in them just a few (3-4) gens back... having said that, the Dutch have no problem mixing in Dutch Shepherds and GSDs whenever they see fit.. you see, their only purpose is to breed superior working dogs, they could give 2 ounces of monkey crap what the FCI (the international version of the AKC) thinks!!

and by the way, the KNPV dogs really are the best dogs out there, IMO... but it isn't just my opinion, ask around. ;)


2. Now, as for this "macho" image thing.. come on folks... are you really trying tell me that people don't get into "Rotties" for the image??? .... they may stay around for other reasons, but looks go along way, whether you want to admit it or not.....

3. Gameness, as Pit folks talk about it, does not speak directly to dog fighting, but to a dog's desire to stay in a fight that he doesn't think he can win... it is close to "fight drive", but a glaring difference is that gameness seems to be hard-wired, unlike fight, which is learned/inherited....

did I miss anything??? :)