Ring Sport

[Judi W]

I was privileged recently to spend an entire evening watching video tapes of trials and also of agitator training seminars and I must share that I was impressed to the max and am trying to get an invitation to see more of them.

In ring, the agitator is definitely not a "helper" and in fact does all he can to defeat the dog. They are awesome athletes and there is no coreography or script that is followed. I watched one clever fellow who at the last second leaped up in the air with his legs spread and the dog ended up shooting right through missing his bite. Said clever aggitator however tried that when the dog turned for a second attack and smart dog got him right in the crotch. Fool me once said the dog. Another dog was cleverly trained to keep one foot in the basket during that part and he was not able to be taken away from his charge of the basket. He was able to face down the agitator from all directions without losing touch with his prize.

It was easy to see why the Rottweiler would not be a candidate for the three level, but my what a show this sport provides. Leader and all else who participate in this sport - my hat (and apron) are off to you.

[Storm]

Yeah, nothing like popcorn, Coke and.................ring sport videos! LOL! It really is inspiring watching those guys and especially the dogs. I've got some cool footage where the "helpers" are more airborn then anything else. We hade Robbie deJonge (spelling) here a while back who confirmed back home in Holland, the heplers get carried off the field sometimes, despite the protective aids they wear. That's probably why they call it "Ring Sport" cause when the dog hits ya, you hear these little bells "ringing" in your head! LOL I worked a Korbelbach GSD a few months back and the dog hit me so hard that my feet where zinging, honestly it felt like I was elevated on impact. That's the life, if I had to break a few bones, that's the way I would wanna go..................... :D

Hey Annette what ya think of the WUSV results?

[bgdawgrr]

Training for Ring has been one of the best learning experiences I have had with dogs ever, and also one of the most challenging. Seems as if every time you solve one problem, a new one creeps in. Right now I have to get my girl over being "stick shy". She easily went through Ring III type barrages/hits all through training, but now that she bites a suit, she is taking the 'game' a little more serious. I think she got an accidental pop on the nose or something and has to work through it. Little too much defense right now. Also hit that 18 month age where I understand defense drive really starts in Rotts. Keeping the balance within the dog is tuff. Bite drive vs. obedience, always balance. Learning to decoy ring (which I am currently doing) is fun. In training, you really are a "helper" even praising the dog, feeding and encouraging the bites, helping the dog with it's weaknesses. In competition it is completely the opposite. You try to defeat the dog and exploit any weakness you can see. Sometimes in Ring III, even a little "outside" the rules. It gets real serious. I agree that with a Rott, Ring III is really a dream. I don't know if I even want to make my girl do the palisade. I know not often if we do. Rotts can definitely do the exercises as far as defense, obedience, and many of the jumps, but to get max points, that is an impressive dog. Probably on the smaller side I would suspect. I don't think I want to see a 120lbs. monster try to long jump or clear a 2.3 meter palisade.

[Storm]

Hey bgdawgrr,

Nice to hear you and your dog are enjoying the ring work. You mention the dog having been stick shy etc. defence training at eighteen months, aren't you going a little to fast here. With a lot of the really high drive nuts and associated nerves, defense is not even an issue, unless you make it one. Good helper relations in training spills over into competition, irrespective of how hard the helper pushes, the dog sees him in that training light. See the hollanders going this way in ScH too.

[Mattweiser]

I think the "taking it too far" is a common problem in Ring training... first off, they primarily use a breed that is more suited for the specific sport.. secondly (from what I have seen, with regard to Belgian Ring) they always train through the entire trial, every session...

they don't do alot of breaking up scenarios, and problem solving, they seem more to just "work through it"...

another reason why Rotties have a tough go of it, the damn trial is non-stop.... there are no breaks like in SchH, at the most the dog might get a little drink at a couple of points.....


LOL, Bart Bellon, who is a master in NVBK (Belgian Ring) conditions his dog by having it grip a dumbbell or sleeve, and pull his bicycle with a harness on.. they go for 5 mile rides this way!!! that is some hard-core conditioning!!!

[bgdawgrr]

Storm,
To clarify, I am not doing any defensive work with my girl, only bite work in ring (face attack, defense of handler, attack with gun, all ring I excercises). Previous to last month, J.Lo never had a problem with the stick. It was a shock to me two weeks ago when she released a leg bite and went back in when the decoy faked with the stick. This was really a first. No problem with consistant presure, but the fast swipes from behind, problem. The next training session, you could see that she was "blinking" when the stick was being worked. The thought was two fold. (well, there were more, you know how trainers are, I'll consolidate to two)
1. Since J.Lo was begining to mature, her natural defensive traits are starting to show. (I was told she was a great candidate for PP, but I wanted to do sport first) Maybe she is seeing the work more serious rather than as a game, and that the stick was actually a real threat. She was still very game for the bite, but seemed somewhat "cautious". Maybe a defense drive trait. The suit may be mistaken more as taking on a "man" than the tug and leg sleeve which are obviously prey items. Might need to back up a step if this continues as there was zero problem on the leg sleeve or large tug.
Theory 2. Maybe she got caught with the stick on accident and she was now aware of the stick and needs to work through it and not care about it as in the past year. Possible, but again she had no problem I could see on a leg sleeve, except the blinking. If she really wants the bite, she will not worry about the stick or think about it.
Here is what I decided to try.
I have not given her a bite the last few training sessions to frustrate her and really build her drive. No OB for the same time span. Only playing ball and frisby. No tug of war. She also got to watch the other dogs work and really get fired up.
In our session today (still no bite), not even a blink at the threatening stick. A good amount of pressure too. Thursday she will get her bites and hopefully get right back on track. Will put a leg sleeve cover on the suit to let her win and hopefully translate the suit as the new prey item and let her see it is still a game.:D

[Storm]

For whatever reason the dog is "stickshy" by conditioning him to presence and blows, sure he may become more accostomed to it yet the problem doesn't get fixed, with uncertainty the dog is inclined to "get away". IMO it's better for the dog to learn that grip and forwardness releases pressure, not an easy concept to grasp by many guys. I guess the main thing is that you guys are enjoying what you're doing.;)

[Grendl]

I plead ignorance; what is Ring Sport, and how is it different from Schutzhund? Thanks.

[poohbearsmom]

Some bedtime reading for you..... :D

http://members.aol.com/malndobe/frring.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/M...044/whatis.htm

http://users.skynet.be/hexental/belringsport.htm

http://www.ringsport.org/

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/activi...chutzhund.html


There will be a test..... lol

Elisabeth

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Storm
IMO it's better for the dog to learn that grip and forwardness releases pressure, not an easy concept to grasp by many guys.

AMEN!!

This concept cannot be emphasised enough!!!

[Leader]

I've been involved in ringsport here in France with my rott and now with my pup for about 5 years now. It is really great fun and really interesting. however, when in training, you RARELY go through the entire routine with a dog that is ready for competition. you work on certain exercises and usually ou of order, sometimes even putting the dog in the crate between obedience and bite work. However....

For the stick, have you tried having one at home and petting your dog with it, stroking her so that she learns not to fear it...or be wary? My male started competing at about 2 or a little more with the 'Brevet' and then started in Ring I abviously, but it does take a rott more maturity. I'd say from my humble experience that your dog is a wee bit young for such serious training, but of course I'm no expert. Ask someone like Mick Trainer, Workin Dogs, Judi W or German Vanegas who are real trainers/pros.

[Judi W]

Another evening of videos last Sat. The demonstration area of a French dog show had ring demos, SAR demos with a dog being lowered on a sling, ladder climbing and a pile of rubble searched. There was a wall climbing competition that left me breathless. They kept raising the heigth until it was ????? We guessed 15 feet or more.

Then a visit to the SAR training camp in the Alps I believe. A abandoned military installation set up just for SAR training. Amazing.

Then back to a decoy seminar and more ring competition. Leader - I am most impressed and envious.

Yes to delay on the stick I would think. In ring, the stick is not used like it is in ScH when the dog is already on the sleeve. The stick is truly used to keep the dog off and they work through it so going slow would be important or the dog can be discouraged I would believe. As I mentioned earlier, the decoy is in no way a helper but a true adversary. I watched some VERY clever decoys and stealing the basket it quite a thing to watch.

Wow!!!

[Leader]

Thanks Judi:D,

Most helpers are just that in training and try to do their best for the dogs they train, even if they don't come from their club. They are truly cooperative and helpful, for the love of the sport, the love of dogs, and the love of competition. However, just watch out when you get into competition ring cause they're there to get as many points as they can from the dog! Oh well, that's what they're there for!

I've already started training Blaze for guarding an object. We're starting with a handleless basket. I actually put kibble in it and let her eat some, with one or two front paws in it. Little by little I'll wean her off the kibble. Hope this works. Leader JUST LOVES his basket (anyone that's handy ;) ). But then he's a very possessive dog.

i just love ringsport and I love watching. Every year we try to go to the French championships. It really is very impressive. And great fun and a tremendous challenge.

[Judi W]

Two things I came away with as well. The dog who was trained to always keep one hind foot in the basket never lost it to a decoy.

Also, on the transport, this same dog moved sideways with his body touching the back of the handler's legs at all times while watching the decoy. That way it would be very hard for the decoy to run over him due to closeness during the transport when the decoy is behind the handler. (did this picture make sense?).

Oh yes, the difference between seminars, training and trials is quite pronounced as the evil decoys try every method to defeat the hero dogs! :D

[Leader]

Judi,
I don't quite get the picture:D

About the transport I mean and touching the handler's legs and watching the decoy.....The only time I can think of when a dog does anything like that in ringsport id during the defending of the handler. And often dogs (obviously the good guys) walk backwards, heeling and constantly watching the decoy/helper/bad guy, until they attack the hendler at which time the good guy goes after the bad guy;)

Good idea about the hind legs. Must try that on 4 month old Blaze. Very good habit to get into.

Leader