How much work/excercise while wearing a muzzle?

[Jamie & Odin]

I know dogs wear muzzles at times for sport and work with specific purposes, although I am not educated in that area at all.

With a properly fitted muzzle, that allows for panting, drinking etc. how much effort can a dog safely exert?

I feel competent in determing if my dog was under significant stress, but obviously wouldn't want to reach that point.

He's able to pant with his muzzle on, but obviously not with his mouth hanging wide open, taking great breaths as he normally would. Which is why I ask. He's seemed stressed once, when we were running in the woods, but I couldn't tell if he was just frustrated with the muzzle or becoming physically stressed, I took it off and he was just fine.


Is a steady walk pulling a wagon with about 60 lbs. too much? (that's why I'm posting in working rotts, we are starting to get more into carting and are out and about in public much more with the wagon) How about a good run in the woods?

Thanks!

[Judi W]

I would suggest it depends more upon the temperatures and humidity and that is what you need to be paying attention to. Walking, even while carting should not demand heavy panting unless it is too warm. Remember, when the sun is on the dog that makes a big difference too regardless of the ambient temperature.

[Jamie & Odin]

Sounds good Judi. I just didn't really know if all else is equal if a dog with a muzzle on can become physically stressed more easily than without one.

Carting has never caused heavy panting, some light panting though. And I am ever mindful of the heat and sun. We are going on a 2 mile long walk in which he will be pulling kids in the wagon for a fundraiser. He has never pulled for that long before, so just wanted to check.

Thanks!

[mark_sherry]

Jamie,

I work my dog in muzzle all of the time now. To answer your question, I need to know what kind of muzzle you've got on your dog. I'm not sure about the picture I'm getting of the muzzle based upon your description. On one hand, it seems like a non-restrictive muzzle because you say he can pant and drink water; however, on the other hand, you're saying that he can't pant with his mouth wide open to get a deep breath. Most working muzzles, like the wire cage kind used in police and military work for day-to-day activity, isn't restrictive at all. In fact, there's plenty of room for the dog to open its mouth pretty wide, certainly wide enough to take deep breaths and to give some pretty confident barks. If you're looking for a daily safety muzzle, then go with this wire cage muzzle. It will allow your dog to drink, gives it plenty of airflow, and allows it to open its mouth to pant.

Now, to answer your question at its root point, I think that working a dog in any capacity in muzzle, if having the proper muzzle, is fine. You would treat each situation as if the dog weren't in muzzle. Like Judi says, if it's hot or very sunny outside, then you need to reevaluate the time of day that you're training your dog regardless of the fact that he's wearing a muzzle.

Mark

[angrygenius]

Why are you working him with a muzzle on at all? Is he aggressive? Do you not trust him? If he's not aggressive or untrustworthy, why not just can the muzzle and avoid any potential problem? JG

[Judi W]

Odin has some fear issues and belongs to a responsible owner who is keeping him muzzled while getting him out and about and proceding with his training and desensitation. He has made vast improvements. With the muzzle on, much of the tension and worry that a handler of such a dog can feel (which passes right down the lead) isn't there which helps the dog gain confidence as well.

[angrygenius]

I was just curious if there was a NEED for the muzzle, or if it was in use for some other reason. No offense intended here, I just don't think anyone should put unnecessary obstacles in the way. JG

[Jamie & Odin]

Thanks all.

Mark, the muzzle is just a standard muzzle that the average pet owner would pick up at petsmart. I don't know the specific types to give you a name. It is not a basket muzzle, it is the same type used at vets offices, but fitted a bit looser. It allows for drinking, light panting and even eating small treats.

angrygenius, my goal at some point is that a muzzle will no longer be necessary. I think we are not too far away, but we'll see, I'm in no hurry.

Judi, as always thank you. And he has made incredible strides, especially in the last couple months. I'll just watch the heat and sun and we'll continue on:D

[mark_sherry]

Jamie,

It sounds like you're OK with this type of muzzle. I'm not familiar with the kind they sale at Petsmart, but if it's big enough for your dog to open its mouth (i.e., it's not a restrictive muzzle), then you should be able to accomplish your goals with no problem with the muzzle on. I like the wire basket muzzle for everyday safety use, but they are a bit expensive. If you're using the Jafco plastic muzzle or something equivalent to it, I'd feel good about it too if I were you. The generic canvas muzzles (commonly used to stop barking) are too restrictive for working dogs in carting. Just keep an eye out on the heat, and good luck with the progress you're making with Odin.

Mark

[BostonRott]

I would NOT work a dog in a nylon muzzle such as is used at the vet's office. Entirely too much restriction and chance of overheating.

The muzzles used at vets are designed to keep the dog's mouth shut. They are NOT for work!!!!!!!!!

The muzzles used by police dogs (I train with them, and have taken many muzzle hits) are either wire basket or leather woven to a shape similar to the dog's muzzle and very open. The leather muzzles have a steel bar re-inforcing the end of the muzzle.

PLEASE do not work your dog in a nylon muzzle, there is simply not enough allowance for heat or air exchange under exertion.

[Jamie & Odin]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not "working" my dog like most of you involved in sport, pp etc., just some light carting, at a walking pace. I don't take him out even just for walks when it is too hot out.

Hope that helps clarify the level of exertion I'm talking about. It's not much, but I always like to ask something I'm not entirely sure about.

I just meant the muzzle is designed similarily, but not nearly as restrictive as that in a vet's office. I also have a nylon velcro muzzle, which is completely adjustable. Both do allow for panting, drinking etc. He has never shown any sign of being overheated or stressed while walking or carting with these muzzles on.

I will, however, invest in a basket muzzle for anything more than very light carting and walks.

Thanks again!

[mark_sherry]

Jamie,

Like I said earlier, I think you'll be fine with the muzzle that you've got if its got enough breathing room for the dog. The muzzle that I was warning you about is a totally different type of muzzle, and I think that's what BostonRott is referring to as well. And I know what kind of exertion that you're talking about, and using a muzzle is of no real concern for that either since you're dealing with a situation that makes you feel more comfortable working Odin in. A good wire basket muzzle is great, but don't run out and buy one if you're seeing good success with the one you have, and it allows Odin the opportunity to breath well, drink, and get a good deep breath on occasion. A good one costs around $50, so it's not an inexpensive item.

Mark

[DailyDouble]

There are safety muzzles (which are designed to keep the dogs mouth shut) and basket muzzles (which allow for an open mouth, ability to bark, drink, pant and work).

Nylon muzzles are restrictive and NOT designed for use for working or exercising. Even if it is too big for the dog; the airflow is not equal to that of a basket muzzle made of wire or leather.

The plastic muzzles are somewhat restrictive as well.

Invest in the proper equiptment for the job.

[mark_sherry]

DailyDouble,

Based upon Jaime's description, I think the proper muzzle has already been found, unless I'm misled about the kind of muzzle she's referring to. To me, it sounds like she's not using the nylon restrictive muzzle or the standard plastic muzzle. The Jafco plastic muzzles are pretty big and are used by many law enforcement agencies in lieu of the wire cage muzzle. These muzzles do allow for the dog to drink and get a big breath, and are simply an alternative to the wire cage muzzle. However, Jaime, if I'm misled by what you've got, then I must concur that the wire cage muzzle is the better alternative and is worth the investment. And another added benefit of the wire cage muzzle is the fact that you can give small treats to your dog while it's on, and I'm sure that's something that you'd like to do as a reward for Odin for doing a good job -- another thing to consider. I do think that a leather Frabo muzzle used for protection/PSD work is a bit overkill for your needs. To begin with, it's not recommended that you let your dog drink with them on -- too much wear and tear on the leather. Secondly, they cost between $175 - $250. I like mine, but I only use if for training muzzle aggression. Add to that the fact that you have to keep it oiled weekly so that the leather doesn't dry out. So, if you're going to get something else, I recommend the wire cage muzzle.

Mark