Muzzle Work

[mark_sherry]

Just a question to throw out here. My wife is diametrically opposed to bite work, and I'm finding it difficult to live under the same roof with her when we get into a discussion in regards to training Brita. I'll be soon joining a club in my area, and right now I'm forced to focus on Ob and Tr only. I do have to keep the peace in my house! :) Anyway, my wife is OK for Brita to do muzzle work, but I'm not sure if anyone has ever trained muzzle work from the beginning or if it's only been done after a couple of years of bite training (I'm still trying to figure out why she's OK with Brita being able to knock the crap out of someone in the gut or groin but not OK with her biting a sleeve in sport). Basic bite work is recommended, I know, but right now, I'm not in a position to do that. Anyone know of any recommendations that could help me get started with some kind of PP work that could/would involve muzzle work? Or am I just pissing in the wind? Maybe I could muzzle my wife and not have to worry about this. :)

Mark

[Judi W]

Dang it. I've told you before we do dog counseling, not martial counseling!!!!!!:D
(sorry, I just couldn't resist)...............

[mark_sherry]

Dang it. I've told you before we do dog counseling, not martial counseling!!!!!!

Judi,
You're a riot! Thanks for making me smile. I've needed that all day -- it's been a bad seizure day, so I'm at wits end here. A good laugh is the best med, though.
Mark

[Judi W]

Well, I don't always have sage advice, but I ALWAYS have an opinion!

[Mick Trainer]

No in my opinion you cannot do muzzle work without bite work. It can be done with a really strong dog as a test of a dog but it is not a training technique in its own right.

Mick.

[CajunsMom]

Why won't your wife let you do bite work with your dog?

BTW, I agree 100% with Mick.

Sandy

[mark_sherry]

I've tried that approach with her, and she will not budge. She is convinced that bite work will lead towards aggression, especially around children. I've given her countless articles and emails to read, but she won't have anything to do with it.

By the way, I know the consensus here is to start with bite work first and to build a foundation there, but I have found a few organizations/trainers who disagree. They are the ASR and A. Brian Amm, most notably. What do you all know about these people and/or organizations?
Mark

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by mark_sherry

By the way, I know the consensus here is to start with bite work first and to build a foundation there, but I have found a few organizations/trainers who disagree. They are the ASR and A. Brian Amm, most notably. What do you all know about these people and/or organizations?
Mark

I don't understand this statement. Can you be more specific about the bitework and foundation statement before I answer.

[mark_sherry]

Muckdogs,

The only thing I'm referring to here is that when I've asked people about starting with muzzle work first, they've typically told me that it is not appropriate to train a dog primarily for muzzle work. So, after doing some independent research, I did find a couple of websites (one is the American Street Ring and the other is an article written by A. Brian Amm) which seem to say that the primary objective can be to train a dog in muzzle work without doing bite work. I neither agree nor disagree with any side right now, as I'm trying to keep an objective approach to this while I'm doing the research.

The argument against muzzle work being done first seems to be that it by-passes prey drive and goes right to defense drive, which could create problems in the future. All people who're against muzzle work up front say that I should build a foundation with bite work before going to muzzle defense.

The argument for muzzle work at any time of the training process seems to be that biting is not the means to the end, and that all drives can be worked and developed successfully through muzzle training.

Well, I hope I've given you enough info to work with. If not, PM me, and I'll try to be more concise and detailed with what I'm trying to find out.
Thanks,
Mark

[Muckdogs]

Defense is not in play with muzzle work, it is fight drive. It is the dog affirmatively taking the fight to the man, regardless of handicap. Absolutely totally different from prey or defense drive. It is serious training and should not be done on a whim or experimented with unless your trainer knows what he is doing. I for one, do not think this an appropriate substitution for bite work. Not all dogs can do true muzzle work. In fact, very few can do it at all. The dog has to possess sound nerves and fight drive. I'm talking about true muzzle work, not just the dog bumping into the decoy. You'll know th differnece when you see it.

As far as the ASR goes, I train with a guy that did ASR for quite a while. The bitework in ASR is high speed stuff with TREMENDOUS environmental and helper stress placed upon the dog. Those dogs have a ton of foundation training. I find it hard to believe taht anyone who does ASR would advocate muzzle work prior to sound and solid bite work foundation. It's really illogical. The dog has to be very confident in his ability and sense of self to succeed in muzzle work. Without a proper bite work foundation, I don't know how the dog would develop to that point.

[Judi W]

Told you I have opinions. :D

Well, I wouldn't send my son to enlist in an army that was going to war with no bullets in their rifles. I wouldn't want to enter a street fight and be told I had to keep my hands in my pockets, and I wouldn't want my dog in a street fight muzzled.

Muzzle work usually has a very specific purpose in military and police work which is most often designed to be utilized for apprehension in a civilian crowd of innocents. This done with the full knowlege that the dog has effectively been disarmed. To ask a dog to enter into a fight under those circumstances I have to agree, it takes a very strong and confident dog with much background.

As far as personal protection is concerned, I see no purpose. Is the dog going around muzzled at all times so that if a true threat occurs, he will be sure not to hurt anyone? To what point? If the goal is sport work, a well balanced dog does not mistake a child for a helper with a sleeve.

So, in the support of family harmony, perhaps you should consider a sport for this dog that does not involve protection work. There are many to choose from.

PS, being trained to fight muzzled, does not in any way assure that the dog is not going to use his teeth if they are available to him. (hence my question about whether he is going to have to go around muzzled all the time) In fact without good bite work background, it might even stimulate him to use them more quickly to compensate for those times when he has had to work handicapped.

[Mick Trainer]

Judi,

I am not sure what you are saying in your post. I dont think that Mark is talking about having his dog muzzle fought alone or that it is going to wear a muzzle all the time. Muzzle fighting is a legitimate training technique to test and develop a dogs fighting drive, as Muck dog said to teach him to fight when his greatest weapon is disabled. When used correctly it can lift a dog to a totally different level in its work making the dog far more serious. I dont know of any dog who have been trained in Muzzle so that they can be worked in the street in Muzzle. All of the serious dogs I train will go into muzzle work at sometime to finish their training off and to evaluate their training before they hit the street. They are not trained as such so that they can walk to streets in muzzle and fight like this on the street. Anyone can break a dog in a muzzle. It is for this reason that I think muzzle work should be left to the experts. You can leap ahead with Muzzle work when done correctly and go backwards in a very high rate of Knots if you do it wrong.

As for doing the muzzle work first I stand by my original posting but will add this. Muzzle work is very frustrating for the dog (Frustration is a very effective training technique to lift a dogs fight drive. This can be seen used by a lot of very good trainers and can be called "Loading".). At some point this frustration should be displaced onto an object so that it is not built up within the dog and causes other behavioral issues. The best way to relieve this frustration is to give the dog a narmal sleeve, suit type of bite and let him calm himself on this bite. Without a foundation in bite work this cannot be done. Just one aspect as to why I feel that this would be a bad idea.

Mick.

[Judi W]

Sorry if I was misunderstood. I was trying to point out that the desire for muzzle work in order to avoid any bite work at all did not make sense to me. I know he doesn't intend for his dog to go around muzzled. I was attempting to point that learning to fight muzzled does not mean that a dog will not use his teeth if not muzzled. Yes, it is the frustration that you describe that I think might have a dog who is not allowed bite work at all and yet put into defense situations to perhaps be more reactive with his teeth than he might be otherwise. I think there might very well have unintended consequences.

[mark_sherry]

These are all very good points, and like I said, I'm just feeling around for an answer that I did not know. Muckdogs, you're right about muzzle work being a fight drive not a defensive drive. I let my fingers do the typing before my brain could catch up. Amm's article uses Muzzle Defense, and reading that, I accidentally put defense in there when it should be fight. He makes good points, though, about training in muzzle from the beginning, but again, I have nothing to compare it to.

Here is an excerpt from his article:
"You have your dog wearing the agitation muzzle; he's been properly socialized; and you are ready to do combat training. Will the dog still be motivated to engage/apprehend a person if the ability to bite is not there? To fully answer this question, we would have to write a treatise on animal aggression and motivation, discussing why dogs bite, what causes them to stop, and what are they trying to accomplish. For this article, it is sufficient to reiterate that for the dog, the act of biting is a means to an end -- not an end in itself (or, in animal behavior lingo, it is an instrumental act). The bite is a "tool" used to satisfy needs, e.g., acquire food, drive off intruders, resolve conflicts. If the same goals can be accomplished without the bite, the dog will be just as satisfied. The key then is to show the dog that this can be done, not only while wearing the muzzle, but by using it. "

Read through that and please give me your thoughts on what he's saying here. He goes on to establish a program for starting a dog out on muzzle work, step by step, without using any bite work.

I'm not taking one position or the other. I'm still feeling this thing out and talking to potential trainers as well. I'm leaning towards your views on the subject because I trust your opinions. And I think the safest route would be to hire a hypnotist to place subliminal messages that would support Brita's participation in ScH, bite work and all. Anyone know of a good hypnotist?! :)

Mark

[Mick Trainer]

If the same goals can be accomplished without the bite, the dog will be just as satisfied. The key then is to show the dog that this can be done, not only while wearing the muzzle, but by using it.

I agree with everything that is said until here and even this on its own in Ok but in this context I cannot concur. This in itself fundamentally is little different from the high levels of defensive training used previously by such people as Koelher and as I said before does not give the dog the ability to calm down. As with all muzzle work it may teach the dog that he/she must fight very hard for the job to be done (which is of no concern). But as I have said in above posts there is no room here for the dog to relieve the frustration built up through doing such work which can lead to hightened levels of aggression at lower levels of stimulus. This for me is the problem.

Purely theoretically this training could work but having done extensive muzzle work I feel that it would not. I also see theortically that this may have little bearing in a real life senario as this could produce a similar effect of having a dog require equipment for it too work. Any completely regular piece of equipment will become a trigger for the work to begin and if no work is ever done without it then the chances are the dog will soon require the equipment for the work.

Mark,

Was this guy actually writting about starting dogs on the muzzle right off or just as a piece of the training puzzle?

And for the reord muzzle work has a far greater chance of creating an overtly aggressive dog than sport/normal PP work. I'll leave it up to you as too whether your wife needs to know that or not.

Mick.