Muzzle Work

[mark_sherry]

Mick,

Thank you for your reply. From what I gather in the article, it appears that he's arguing that muzzle work can be accomplished in its own right from the start. But to alleviate any further confusion and to give you all the details, I'm going to give the link to the article (should have done that in the first place). If anything, it may be an interesting read for everyone. I may be way off in my perception of what he's saying, and if I am, just chalk it up to a beginner who's trying to learn the ins and outs of PP and bite training as a whole. Here it is:

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0047.htm

I appreciate everyone's patience and help. There's a lot of information out there, and then there's more opinions from every trainer who I've talked to. It gets frustrating when I'm trying to clarify things in my own mind.

Mark

[Mick Trainer]

Mark,

He is indeed talking about training the dog first in muzzle and teaching control routines and then going into other bitework. I cannot agree but hey if it works for him then go for it. I see no real benefit to this and lots of pit falls. For me teach the control on the sleeve bringing in small amounts of fight etc along the way and then test and build the dogs fight drive further in the muzzle.

Mick.

[mark_sherry]

Perhaps the benefit he sees comes from the fact that he trains dogs solely for K-9 purposes, and he might find that police forces are leaning towards using muzzled dogs all of the time. For example, riot conditions or even chase conditions when a bite has to be justified in court -- and those are difficult to defend from what I've heard from some K-9 officers in my area. I re-read the article as well to make sure I had an understanding of what he's saying, and I agree that it looks like he's advocating muzzle defense work from the start as the only implement.

Mark

[DailyDouble]

hey mark relax. my better half is a trainer to and we have different philosophies in some areas of the work.

has made for some very interesting and loud rides home from the training field on a few occasions.

we came to a mutually satisfying compromise. you work your dogs and i'll work mine. you train however you want (even if its dead wrong :D ) and i'll do my thing and we will put it out on the field in trial. may the trainer who picked the method that best suits the dog come out on top.

helps to have two vehicles to take to training to. :D

now on to muzzle work. i firmly adhere to the belief that you have to condition the dog to bite effectively.

i have seen dogs that hit the decoy like a freight train and will take him off of his feet but the bite is weak. prey drive and the chase excites the dog more than the actual manstopping idea.

POS dog in my view. wouln't last a day with me.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by mark_sherry
Perhaps the benefit he sees comes from the fact that he trains dogs solely for K-9 purposes, and he might find that police forces are leaning towards using muzzled dogs all of the time.

I would say he is attempting (or possibly does) train a PSD that is not bite oriented, for a number of reasons. One benefit to muzzle work is that it is not Prey based, so the chances of a dog becoming locked are exponentially lower..

I do not agree with the overall concept of not having a base in bitework, because, as Mick stated, biting is a way for the dog to "release"..

it seems to me that if you consistently worked a dog w/o an emmotional release, it would "cook" the dog in a very short period of time


Also, realize that while this guy is advocating begining in muzzle work, he does eventually move on to traditional bitework... you are contemplating a lifetime of this, with no bitework, IMO not a good way to raise a family pet.. a prison dog perhaps, but a family dog.. not in my house! :)

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by DailyDouble
i have seen dogs that hit the decoy like a freight train and will take him off of his feet but the bite is weak. prey drive and the chase excites the dog more than the actual manstopping idea.

POS dog in my view. wouln't last a day with me.

depends on what the overall goal of the dog and handler is...

I would take this dog.. because with proper training, it would bite nicely also!!

[Mattweiser]

Another thought Mark,

doing alot of muzzle work will also pressure the dog's neck.. all those hits don't absorb the same as a bite on a suit or sleeve do.. and this dog has no way to learn how to target properly, w/o formal bitework

just a thought ;)

keep working on that wife... bring her out to a session.. let her meet our "monsters"!!

:p

[Mick Trainer]

One thing that we must also take into account with this article is that the dogs he is talking about that he is using for Pol. Ser. are probbaly already very civil in nature and thus will not need such a high level of bite development that would be necessary for the average sport or PP dog.

Mick.