Defense on the pole

[Muckdogs]

Picking up where we left off, fuggedaboudit. The pole flips my dog's defensive switch, period. No iff's and's or buts. The decoy could prey himself to death and it's still defense, period. Bad imprint, as I said but I won't get into that. Off the pole, or me as a post up, he's fine. And yes, I realize a dog in defense will bark, but it's for a different purpose not consistent with the B&H.

Everyone's dog is different, mine just shuts down for different things. Kinda like a dog that will bite the Gappay beautifully to the gills, but doesn't like the 203 or the Belgian Arm. We stay away for the pole and everything is a-okay.

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
And yes, I realize a dog in defense will bark, but it's for a different purpose not consistent with the B&H.

That's cool. It does sound like he's CCed in defense to the pole.

I do realize it is that defense is a different bark. Ideally it should be 50/50 on the guard. But getting back to the point of not using the ball as a precursor to the bark and hold (reminder: my opinion) What makes you think that if the dog's in true defense and you give the dog the bark command you taught with the ball that he will switch moods?

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by valdes43


That's cool. It does sound like he's CCed in defense to the pole.

I do realize it is that defense is a different bark. Ideally it should be 50/50 on the guard. But getting back to the point of not using the ball as a precursor to the bark and hold (reminder: my opinion) What makes you think that if the dog's in true defense and you give the dog the bark command you taught with the ball that he will switch moods?

Actually, I think that 50-50 is a bit high on the defense side. According to Flinks, dogs should ideally be working 70-30-10 or 80/15/5 prey/defense/fight (picked that up at his last seminar). No, I don't think tha tthe bark command will flip his switch back to prey, not sure if he can without the accompanying actins of the helper. I don't use the prey items, balls/rolls/etc in any defensive work at all. Mainly just in drive/focus/drive obedience and teaching a new behavior as I think it counterproductive to try to teach new tasks in defense. Far too much conflict for me. I think that you can optimize learning working in prey drive, vis-s-vis object rewarding.

[Muckdogs]

Sorry,. read you post wrong as to the 50/50. I thought you were indicating that the dog should generally work 50/50, not just ont he guard. My bad.

[valdes43]

No problem.

My only point on the other thread was that I thought that teaching a dog to bark with a ball at home in purpose of preparation for barking in guarding is not my style.

Peace.

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Muckdogs


Actually, I think that 50-50 is a bit high on the defense side. According to Flinks, dogs should ideally be working 70-30-10 or 80/15/5 prey/defense/fight (picked that up at his last seminar). No, I don't think tha tthe bark command will flip his switch back to prey, not sure if he can without the accompanying actins of the helper. I don't use the prey items, balls/rolls/etc in any defensive work at all. Mainly just in drive/focus/drive obedience and teaching a new behavior as I think it counterproductive to try to teach new tasks in defense. Far too much conflict for me. I think that you can optimize learning working in prey drive, vis-s-vis object rewarding.

Damn, my math is bad. 70/30/10 should have been 70/25/5

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Muckdogs


According to Flinks, dogs should ideally be working 70-30-10 or 80/15/5 prey/defense/fight (picked that up at his last seminar).


Far too much conflict for me. I think that you can optimize learning working in prey drive, vis-s-vis object rewarding.

Yeah, you know what's funny. Every exercise with the exception of the "escape" in Schutzhund was meant to be a defense exercise. Prey is definitely conducive/imperative to learning. I think prey drive is great!

[Orville Story]

We use the pole to teach the hold and bark. To get good scores in the guarding the dog needs to be in defense. Those deep, low, serious barks will give the Judge a better opinion of the Dog's power.

We use a lot of prey in most of our bite work, but in the guarding defense is what gets the desired barking. And the pole is the best place for that work.

[Muckdogs]

I get what you are saying Orville, and don't disagree. However, as I said, my dog has a real problem right now with shutting down (by that I mean super hectic, chitty munchy bites, loss of control) when he works in defense. I am trying my level best to advance in training utilizing working in prey and keeping things positive until he matures more and we can work through his problems. So you don't think I don't know better I should give a brief history. Early on, wayyyyyyyyyy to much pressure was put on him, on the pole and elsewhere. He was not mentally equipped to handle it and it screwed him up bigtime. THEN, I attended a seminar and long story short, he got the crap beat out of him while on the pole, obviously working in defense. To his credit, he didn't show any avoidance, but it was certainly a fight for his life in his mind. He never forgot those bad things and it has been a slowwwwww process correcting the bad baheviors. Every time he saw the sleeve, bingo fight for his life. WE even went back to basic tug work for months just to get him to calmly carry the object without his eyes glazing over. Bad scene. What's the old saying, If I had know then what I know now.......


Heard an interesting anecdote - You will never hear a dog trainer say " When I get my next dog, I am going to EXACTLY the same things to him that I did to this one..."


Aint that the truth.

[Orville Story]

I was speaking in general, not about your dog. I agree that working in prey is the best way to develope a clam bite.

[Storm]

Well the association has been formed, as you obviously know and the dog has been "rewarded" for drives not in the correct place. If this is a no-go area and you are not able to settle the dog to bring about the comfort desired in order for the dog to absorb correct imprinting, take it eslewhere wher the dog is able to "relax", where the grip is good and then try bring back that left behind ..............fraction at a time. I have seen this time and time again, the S*** been hammered into dogs, having total adverse effects, bringing about the wrong drive or to much of it and ultimately dogs that just shut down and block. I can't express how this makes me feel, not here at least.

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Storm
Well the association has been formed, as you obviously know and the dog has been "rewarded" for drives not in the correct place. If this is a no-go area and you are not able to settle the dog to bring about the comfort desired in order for the dog to absorb correct imprinting, take it eslewhere wher the dog is able to "relax", where the grip is good and then try bring back that left behind ..............fraction at a time. I have seen this time and time again, the S*** been hammered into dogs, having total adverse effects, bringing about the wrong drive or to much of it and ultimately dogs that just shut down and block. I can't express how this makes me feel, not here at least.

That's precisely what we have been doing for the last three months. It isn't easy going back to foundational work, but it pays off. Our problems are nearly corrected and we are getting ready to proof. Pisses me off too, Storm. Fortunately, I was blessed with a hard dog.

[Storm]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
It isn't easy going back to foundational work, but it pays off.

Sure it isn't ;) Especially if there is no foundation to go back to......... or one that is so far off the mark. Some things the dog will never forget, ever. Imagine the difference if all was correct from day one, but that's "life" and unforunately the hardest lesson is the hard learnt lesson.

[Leader]

:( Sorry guys to ask such a stupid question.....:D but what's the pole?

[Orville Story]

This is where the dog is tied to a fixed pole or wall on a short line.

There is an example at my clubs website:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~endfeld/casc.htm