Sport Vs. Real Life

[German Vanegas]

The sport of schutzhund was designed to measure the potential of a given dog to work in real life. In pursuing so, the sport of schutzhund testes the dog in obedience-control, tracking and protection. However, just because a dog is titled in the sport of schutzhund, that in itself does not make the dog a working dog. A schH dog has to receive additional training to qualify to work in real life. Allow me to explain.

In real life, tracking is a lot tougher, more discriminatory and under more difficult situations. It is done on variable surfaces (VST tracking), which is quite more demanding than sport tracking. The same thing with protection. In real life the dog has to learn to defend and guard in much more exigent conditions and circumstances than the rehearsed protection drills in the sport of schutzhund. A true protection dog has to fight the adversary at a higher level of stress and challenges.

The point is, schutzhund is a great sport, indeed, but having a schH titled dog does not automatically qualify him as a working dog... That is, until such dog is trained additionally and later proven in real life situations, out of the rules of the sport context.

A lot of people out there have the wrong impression that a schutzhund dog is a police dog, or a personal protection dog, or a hound tracking dog, and so for forth. Not so. It's not that simple. In order to move from the sport level to the working level, a schH dog has be cross-trained. The outstanding schH dogs will crossover and qualify to actually work in real life. However, many of them schH dogs fail to do so... because as good as many schH dogs are in the sport field, they don't have true working abilities ;)

Having said all that, I want to add that schutzhund is a wonderful dog sport, because it weeds out the dogs with no potential to work, and gives a chance for the ones with potential to work in real life. I personally know superb schH titled dogs working for a living! Nevertheless, you also find many schH dogs that fare well in the sport arena but flunk to qualify to work in real life... And that is what is all about: sport vs. real life.

[Skip]

Does that mean that a new category should be added to the forum for SPORT dogs instead of just the WORKING category? Does that mean that only PP, Police dogs, Military dogs, and Herding (daily) dog questions and comments should be posted here? I understand your point, but I think if any dog is actually being 'worked' in a field that is related to what the breed was created for, it should still be classified as 'working'. Just my opinion...Skip

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Skip
I understand your point, but I think if any dog is actually being 'worked' in a field that is related to what the breed was created for, it should still be classified as 'working'. Just my opinion...Skip

OK. You understand my point. The sport of schutzhund is a training field for dogs with working potentail. However, the sport arena does not compare with real life, because, as you may know, the conditions, situations, and circumstances between the two vary greatly. You can call it working your dog when you are training and competing in the sport of schutzhund, but the actual work is fully tested and measured in real life ;)

[valdes43]

OK so can you admit that the good TRUE ( i know you know what I mean by TRUE) schutzhund dogs are really good real dogs? At least better than SOME of those crappy PSD, MWD, PPD dogs that are out there. Are there not any out there with not so great nerves/ crappy bites with extremely poor training and handling? True, they get the job done (if they do, cause sometimes they DON'T ;)) but not really impressive to this SPORT trainer.

I do agree with your post but I'd hate to give people the impression that these so called real dogs are always awesome stuff.

Not disagreeing just bringing everything to the table. ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by valdes43
OK so can you admit that the good TRUE ( i know you know what I mean by TRUE) schutzhund dogs are really good real dogs? At least better than SOME of those crappy PSD, MWD, PPD dogs that are out there. Are there not any out there with not so great nerves/ crappy bites with extremely poor training and handling? ...

Well, start naming those crappy protection dogs that you know, stating breed and handler, because other than that is just a blanket statement. If you really know about personal protection and guard work, then you owe to know that for a dog to qualify to be protection trained this dog has to be even tempered, with a strong character, good nerves, and intense drives. The type of dog you described is not a personal protection dog, but a fear-biter! Nevertheless, some guys like you wrongly refer to those nervy fear-biters dogs as protection dogs

So you know, big boy, I am not against schutzhund at all. I have a clear record about that. I like schutzhund! However, many schH enthusiasts like you don't like to talk about the difference between sport and real life... Believe me: there is a huge difference! ;)

[Ramon]

Originally posted by valdes43
OK so can you admit that the good TRUE ( i know you know what I mean by TRUE) schutzhund dogs are really good real dogs? At least better than SOME of those crappy PSD, MWD, PPD dogs that are out there. Are there not any out there with not so great nerves/ crappy bites with extremely poor training and handling? True, they get the job done (if they do, cause sometimes they DON'T ;)) but not really impressive to this SPORT trainer.

I know exactly what you mean! I saw a video of a personal protection dog trial, and it was the most pitiful display I've ever seen!! I could've picked up a dog from the local pound, and I would've fit right in. Most of the dogs in our Schutzhund club could have walked in and put 90% of those dogs to shame.
It left a very bad impression on me about personal protection. The participants didn't take dog training seriously. The organizers didn't take any pride in the quality of their trial. It certainly didn't leave me feeling that the training was any good.
I like the philosophy behind "street" personal protection, but if I'm going to work my dog, it will have to be with a first class organization.

[Ramon]

Originally posted by German Vanegas


Well, start naming those crappy protection dogs that you know, stating breed and handler,

If those crappy protection dogs are anything like the ones I've seen on the video tape, then those are basically mutts handled by people who don't know squat. They've never been titled in anything, and they never will (unless maybe they pay the sponsor enough money). So why would anyone even want to know the names of the dogs and handlers?

[valdes43]

Originally posted by German Vanegas


Well, start naming those crappy protection dogs that you know, stating breed and handler, because other than that is just a blanket statement. If you really know about personal protection and guard work, then you owe to know that for a dog to qualify to be protection trained this dog has to be even tempered, with a strong character, good nerves, and intense drives. The type of dog you described is not a personal protection dog, but a fear-biter! Nevertheless, some guys like you wrongly refer to those nervy fear-biters dogs as protection dogs

So you know, big boy, I am not against schutzhund at all. I have a clear record about that. I like schutzhund! However, many schH enthusiasts like you don't like to talk about the difference between sport and real life... Believe me: there is a huge difference! ;)

LMAO!!!! Trust me, I know what a fear biter is and I'm also beggining to think you're not very sure of what a really good dog is. That was halarious!! I guess there are a bunch awesome real working dogs out there and NO lousy ones...

It's alright, I was not disagreeing with you initially. It's nothing about a real life vs. sport dog debate. It's that pretty picture you paint that's not ALL truth! ;) I don't have to name names to know what a crappy dog looks like. And I'm positive that many other people that have seen real good dogs and real crappy ones would agree with my opinion also. Maybe we should look into getting our real dogs from Texas. They must be all good over there! LOL

There's no doubt you have some knowledge German but we definately do not see eye to eye here.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Ramon

I know exactly what you mean! I saw a video of a personal protection dog trial, and it was the most pitiful display I've ever seen!! I could've picked up a dog from the local pound, and I would've fit right in. Most of the dogs in our Schutzhund club could have walked in and put 90% of those dogs to shame.
It left a very bad impression on me about personal protection...

Please, provide more information about the alledge protection trial you saw on video, i.e. protection association or club, name of the event, place and date, so it can be verified ;)

This is just amazing! You alledgedly saw one videotape and you are passing judgement on all protection organizations and PP trained dogs!

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by valdes43
...It's that pretty picture you paint that's not ALL truth! ;) I don't have to name names to know what a crappy dog looks like. And I'm positive that many other people that have seen real good dogs and real crappy ones would agree with my opinion also.

Well, I supposse you are the ONE that knows the truth?!... Naaaaaaw! You are just arguing with baseless arguments...Kind of funny, but baseless! ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Ramon

If those crappy protection dogs are anything like the ones I've seen on the video tape, then those are basically mutts handled by people who don't know squat. They've never been titled in anything, and they never will (unless maybe they pay the sponsor enough money). So why would anyone even want to know the names of the dogs and handlers?

The above says nothing of substance. In fact, your wild claims are totally unsubstantiated... And you know it better than I do! ;) :p

[Major]

Everyone knew what they were getting into when commenting in this thread. I don't mind a strong debate but if it does not stay CIVIL I will delete the whole thread! This is the only warning I'm going to issue.

[Orville Story]

Sport vs Live Duty dogs has several aspects when making a comparison. One the training while similar is very different which ever direction. A Schutzhund trained dog would have to have a good bit of training to adjust, and vice versa a Duty Dog would also have a good bit of training to adjust. Different requirments will demand different training.

Some very good Sport dogs would not be able to make the switch. Also some very good live duty dogs would not do well in Schutzhund. As a matter of fact many dogs that have short comings in Schutzhund, are sold to fill live duty situations.

It is very similar to Pro Ballplayers vs our Police force. There is no question that our true heros are the everyday police, but the better athelets are the ballplayers.

Just like the ballplayer recieves much higher pay, top schutzhund dogs have a much higher value than the every day duty dog. Because of that value the dogs are screened at young ages looking for the best sport dogs. The one that fall a little short end up many times as duty dogs.

Remember on live duty it does not matter if the grip is full or not. What matters is the fact the dog has the courage to make the grip regardless. We have dogs in Sport that can score high because the grip is full, but would not have the courage of a duty dog with a crappy grip.

To summerize, just as a pro-ballplayer will be a better athelet than the everyday policeman or fireman does not mean they have the courage of the policeman or fireman. That is the same with our dogs. What makes these dogs great for sport does not always transfer over into what would make the good for live duty work. However, you will find that most police man and fireman did play sports as young men and women. Eventhough they did not have the abilities to go on to the Pro levels they are made up of the same type of character as the Pro-Ballplayer. It is the same with our dogs.

[German Vanegas]

Thank you Orville. Your above reply is quite informative, realistic, and well articulated. It denotes maturity, knowledge, and experience... I can appreciate that ;)

[damp]

Great post Orville!!!

I love my SPORT SchH and that’s what it is to me… not more and not less, but just a sport.