Shutzhund training vs. regular training

[Diamond Dog]

Please dont move this thread. The reason I am posting in this forum is becuase I want Schutzhund people to respond rather than "general people" as I believe that the actions you take in Schutzhund training are different than regular training.

If I am incorrect in any of my beleifs, please let me know. I have an open mind.

I have a 14 week old with strong lines. We would like to do Schutzhund work with him in the future. The SCHUTZHUND trainers say that I should just let him be a puppy, you really can't do obedience until he is around 6 months, just let him be a puppy as you want to build up his drive and obedience at this age will diminish it. They say keep the obedience super light and dont expect much and just make it fun (no big corrections)

But when you read the threads in the training forum and if you read books, they all say, Do not delay..get your dog into training as soon as possible. 14 weeks is a great time. Get him in classes.
My vet even says, "you need to get him into training if you havent already"

What are your thoughts on these 2 different suggestions. From the Shutzhund trainers I talked to, I beleive that you go about training differently and on different time frames than if you just had a house pet dog, but both methods will have the same end result of a great obedient pet.

We have taught him, sit and down on our own, but in a very light fun way. NO more than 5 minutes a day. He does it about 75% of the time and thats OK with us for now. We take him to the Schutzhund trainer once a week, but mostly just to bite in the puppy circle on a jute.

6 months seems like a long time to let my puppy go! I feel like I should be doing some things. Can I? Will it have a detrimental effect on his drive?

What specific things can I work on? If someone could break it down for me, I would be so appreciative.

Is there something I can do to work on getting his attention and holding it?

I realize he is a pup and I am very realistic about my expectations at this point. I just feel like I should be doing something, even at this young age!

Thanks

[damp]

I also let my pup be a pup. I don’t train sit/stay or down/stay and he doesn’t know what heel means, but that doesn’t mean he has no manners and pulls me down the streets, bites my hands, jumps on people, growls or guards his bones etc.

There are lots of thing I do with my pup until I decide it’s time for obedience: Housetraining, socialization, working for food (think that’s what your trainer calls “super light obedience”) establish leadership, tracking and building up drives.

Yes, many books and many people recommend to start training from day one, and so do I too, if the target group is first times owners or less experienced. Most people training Schutzhund are not first timers and normally don’t have behaviour-dominance- or aggression problems with their dogs and the pup never doubts, who is the leader. Therefore the normal obedience exercises are less important at that age, but instead I use lots of time to convince the pup how “tough” he is, let him have lots of success experiences and build up his confidence.

Happy training ;)

[German Vanegas]

with my dear damp

[GenHannibal]

Yup, so do I...agree with damp. Have fun with your pup! Some people don't start their dogs in schutzhund until they are about a year or eighteen months. It all depends on the dog. Mine was such a goofball and I started him at 18 mos. However, prior to that, as damp stated, he was "imprinted" with fun obedience, tracking, socialization, etc.

[rottypiper]

Use this time for positve socialization. Food motivated obedience is fine also. A dog can be taught manners without having to hammer on a choke chain. This is the major difference between people that want a working dog and people who want a well mannered pet. If you have a working dog you want his status to be just below yours. He knows your boss but he feels he is boss over everyone else. If you have a pet his status in the pecking order is way down. It is just much easier to live with and society in general is more appreciative.

I can't stress enough to socialize your dog. Don't let your pup sit for 6 months because you weren't supposed to do any obedience.

[Storm]

Diamond Dog, nice to see that you are pursuing this in a manner trying to ensure that your actions will be most productive for you and the dog. You say the dog is out of good lines and it would be great if it has produced a dog with good drives, in general, as well as a good stable disposition. Being a puppy you can only move as fast as the dog will allow one, both physically and mentally, so to jump the gun here does not make sense and will only have adverse effects if any. During these early stages, I would take the opportunity to form a good relationship/bond between the two of you where you get to understand each other with respect to status etc. Building drive is not only fun and non-compulsive, but this will set the foundation for other facets of training down the line. Without good drive and "attention", focus or whatever you would like to call it, this makes things complicated. It is very difficult to try and teach obedience at long lengths and try to build drive at the same time. If the drive is being developed in various separate instances, this can be channeled and used in the motivation process. And later by containing the drive you will be able to release the dog where it is pumping at you, creating a great picture. Building drive here will also "spill" over into other areas which would be most useful. Imprinting certain aspects of tracking and forming the associations is also superb. Here one can create great enthusiasm with good associations creating a dog that is even more exuberant. Most importantly the dog is to channel all its energies into YOU! You are to be the source of stimulation for the dog. When he comes out in what ever instance he must look at you as if to say OK what we gonna do? Yeah but for now the dog can learn all the ins and outs of been a puppy within your hierarchy as well as the aspects surrounding every day life, getting out there, being socialized. Try to make these initial experiences or associations positive ones as these initial encounters may invariably have an everlasting impact on the dog.

[Orville Story]

I let my dogs do what they want until they are about a year old. I let them win, win, win, win. I work on attention, tracking, and tug a war games. I don't give any commands that would require a correction if the dog failed to comply. I play game after game to build drives. I have full confidence that I can handle the dog regardless of how strong he becomes.

This is not the best advise to the pet owner that has limited experence in dog behavior. For sport the dog is going to need a much confidence as posible to reach levels required to be a good sport dog. To have enough drive to still be zipping around when it comes time for the retrieves and send away, the dog is going to need in crazy drives. Any deminishing of those drives will hurt performance, corrections will deminish drives.

[Muckdogs]

Totally agree with the General and Damp. Keep it fun and simple. I see nothing wrong with working a little obedience for familiarization purposes and definitely you can get started on tracking as it is a motivatinoal/fun exercise. DO NOT allow yourself to be sucked into any bitework early on. it is a great temptation when you see those shepards and mals biting at an early stage, but don't do it. That is a recipe for disaster and you will spend a lot of time later on correcting bad habits. Take it from one who has been there. Don't forget, a Rott matures physically faster than the GSD's and Mals, but mentally, they are infants (for bitework) until the 18 mos-2 year range. They won't be able to understand the exercises and rationales properly and will end up in conflict. Conflict = hecticness, poor bites, bad outs, which will only build more conflict when you try to correct these things. It is a vicious circle that can only be resolved by waiting patiently.