Muzzle Fighting And Leg Biting

[BIGWRIGHT]

I was sitting around watching some personal protection videos with a friend of mines and we watched some muzzle work being done as well as some handlers working the leg sleeve with a few dogs. My buddy thought it was a dumb move to treach a dog to bite the leg because it may the dog vunerable to be attacked by the attacker from his hands. I can understand that to a point but I still think leg biting can be an important tool but I can see what he's talking about because if a dog is holding a leg then he does become vunerable for getting punched or stabbed or whatever. The muzzle work was excellent my friend thought that by having a dog muzzled attacking someone that can fight back that he can't bite is maybe to much because it teaches the dog to attack a person and hurt them vice the bit and hold affect. I think I answered this question right but I wanted to know what everyone else thought I told him that the fight drive was a very important drive for a dog to prove that he can handle someone in a fight where someone doesn't give up when a large dog is involved. We would all like to believe that everyone is scarred of a Rottweiler but their are a few fools out their who will still try you with a large dog. Case in point a lady was at a ATM her rottweiler was beside her and the guy still tried her I guess he figured that he was just a show rottweiler and even when the dog bit him he still tried his luck. To me I feel it's an important part of a dogs training to build it's courage to let the dog know that it can fight back and it can win a battle. I follow the ???????? theory let the dog do the muzzle work then give him a bite afterward to relieve the frustration of the dog after the muzzling.

Anybody have any views about the muzzle work or leg biting. I know allot of people would rather just use a full body suit but I think their is something to be learned by using these two techniques as well.

[Mick Trainer]

I would certainly say that I agree with the use of both of these techniques for a PP dog, police service dog etc. Teaching a dog to take leg bites is important so that the dog can associate with biting other areas other than the arm when a sleeve is not present (the suit can do the same thing but I will talk more about this further into the post) as the arm may not be present (pulled behind the perp) as well as the dog may have to go past the legs to get to the arm etc. There are many times when a leg bite is necessary in real life. Also a good leg bite can pull the person right off their feet. Leg bites will also allow the dog to learn to fight as it can bite other parts of the body.

Muzzle fighting for me is very important to increase the fight drive of a dog and to test the strength of the dog to do this. Muzzle fighting is were the difference of a good training and an average one is really shown as it is very easy to ruin a good dog here but also were you get a far higher level of fight behavior from the dog when done correctly. Yes I always give a bite after the work to relieve frustration. It is the use of frustration (and other behaviors) in this work that lifts the intensity so far. For this reason also a trainer that isusing Muzzle must be very careful to not over load a dog and send it over the edge and into avoidance. We must never forget the avoidance is brought on by too much stimulation to the dog. The threshold to this stimulus is lowered when a muzzle is present. There is so much more to this work then putting a muzzle on a dog and letting it go.

As for the bite suit if used too often then it is exactly the same as using a sleeve as the dog recognises it as equipment and will go into drive as soon as it is present. It can be used as a proofing device if used correctly for a time but sooner or later the dog learns what it is and thus it looses the realistic aspect of it. Slipping the suit only makes this worse as the dog soon learns that suit and person are not the same same as they do with the sleeve. For this reason we test our dogs in many different equipment. Using an undercover sleeve with no other equpiment on (no scratch pant ect for the dog to recognise) with a person that the dog does not recognise in a situation the dog is not used too can test many dogs. We recently worked Kyle in a hall with very slippery flors, using the undercover sleeve (for the first time with him) and someone he did not know at all (who was 6'4"). Whilst he still came through we saw a bit if weakness and therefore an area that we had to work on. By this I do not mean we did more undercover sleeve work but worked him in other areas to improve the resonse next time. I do not mean to imply that he did really bad or anything just that it highlighted were work had to be done.

Mick.

[German Vanegas]

Legs bites are very painful (I've felt them). Just because a decoy takes a bite on a padded suit, and seems oblivious to it, does not mean that an unprotected person can withstand a leg bite and still focus into fighting the dog. Particularly if the dog bites the thighs. Also, leg bites teaches the dog to redirect the attack as the fighting progresses or changes.

Muzzle work is about letting the dog attack the human threat (decoy) with little opposition. The dog should feel superior to the decoy and so engage him freely, where the decoy must be a great actor to let the dog build plenty of confidence and intense drive. At the end of the session, the dog must be allowed to bite without the muzzle on.

[Mick Trainer]

German wrote: "Just because a decoy takes a bite on a padded suit, and seems oblivious to it, does not mean that an unprotected person can withstand a leg bite and still focus into fighting the dog. Particularly if the dog bites the thighs." This is very true and something I did not cover in my post. Not easy to keep fighting once the dog has taken a bite.

[BIGWRIGHT]

I might say this and hear allot of flack about it but I don't think I can fully trust a dog that only bites in bite suits and doesn't at least work without a suit. My buddy had a schII shepherd and one day he tried his out on personal street protection. He barked and did his thing but when he ran after the guy he stopped he kept looking for a suit to bite and when he did bite the hidden sleeve he broke loose easily. When he was presented a leg sleeve he just barked and nipped at it it was like he was lost or something. I like dog sthat work real street issues because though we all like schutzhund training at the end of the trial the handler is usually a friend and not a bad guy. Yet the streets are the streets and that to me is where it counts.

[Mattweiser]

Bigwright,

this is very common with typically trained sport dogs... if they are never presented with new scenarios, how could they possibly be expected to know how to react??

the answer is, they can't... Mick's post above is a perfect example... he presented his dog with a new scenario, and the dog showed some things that Mick didn't like, so what does he do???

he trains better... (obviosly better is relative, I am sure that Mick's training is hardly lacking to begin with ;) ) that is what we must all do... constantly strive for a more well rounded dog

[German Vanegas]

Bigwright.
You're right. A sport dog is trained under rehearsed scenarios, where the dog anticipates all the moves from the decoy and learns to bite in a precise momentum, finding no opposition (the stick is not really threatening). So the dog is conditioned to respond in an "automated" mode... Is that dog fighting or playing around?

In personal protection the dog is taught to fight under unexpected circumstances and scenarios, where the dog has to fight to prevail, because the decoy will put more pressure than just raise his arm with a stick or caressing the dog with it a couple of times. For instance, hidden sleeve and muzzle fighting are hardly ever used by most schH enthusiasts, however, in PP those are normal tools of training.

By the way, I think is well worth to clarify that muzzle work is more complex than whatever has been described in this thread. I don't want people be left under the impression that you put a muzzle on the dog and then piss him off (some call it "work him up") and that's it. That would only ruin a dog.

[bgdawgrr]

this is very common with typically trained sport dogs... if they are never presented with new scenarios, how could they possibly be expected to know how to react??
He barked and did his thing but when he ran after the guy he stopped he kept looking for a suit to bite and when he did bite the hidden sleeve he broke loose easily. When he was presented a leg sleeve he just barked and nipped at it it was like he was lost or something

Above scenerios are why I think dog sports such as French Ring and Mondio are so far superior to Schutz. The scenerious constantly change, attacks, call offs, gaurds, leg, crotch, arm, shoulder, and back bites. I THINK they translate better into real life/street type scenerios.

[Jamie & Odin]

I can't possibly add anything to this discussion, but am beginning a journey into researching various sports.

I find this discussion so interesting, the drives, the differences between schutz, mondio and french ring.. I want a dog that is strong, capable in the sport ring and a good pet

So, how does one decide which sport is the one for them? I'm sure you all can recommend great books, and I plan to visit the Schutz club in Madison. I am thinking of this endeavor as more of a fun thing, than the need to be protected. But reading your discussions makes me realize there is so much behind these sports, much of which I really don't understand. I guess my main questions relate to the best way to go about getting information initially; books for the novice, where to find info on researching lines and breeders to find a good sport prospect, etc.

And remember, we are talking true novice here, 9 mos. ago I was asking how to teach my boy not to nip :D

[Staggers]

I am interested in the Muzzle Fighting And Leg Biting aspect of this disscussion. I started working my 2 1/2 year old male in PP about 5 months ago. I was hoping to learn more about the muzzle fighting because my trainer has had me get my dog used to the muzzel & will start with it soon. I am concerned about what Mick had said about it being easy to ruin a dog this way. I was hoping that someone would expound on these issues.

I would like to say that I understand that highly trained Police dogs are "more" dog than I would want my dog to be. SchH is not available in my area & I am doing the PP as a sport for my dog. I really don't expect to "need" my dog for personal protection but it would be nice to know I can rely on him should the occasion arise. However, I do take him amongst the public & expect him to act like the well socialized rottweiler he is.

Any advice on what I should expect from my dog & my trainer on these issues of training for PP will be greatly appreciated. I do respect the opinions of those who post in these forums. I also realize I have alot to learn & will not ever do anything to ruin my well tempered dog.

Thanks, Patricia

[Paxx]

Enough. Posts off topic or outside the guidelines have been deleted.