The whip thing

[Leader]

:o Hi folks,

I'm soooo embarrassed. Somewhere here I read something about a training whip used for motivation (pp, Sch???) and would like some more info. about it.
I've asked at my club (FRing, mondio ring, agility, obediance and just plain education, i.e. good manners) and no one seems to know what I'm talking about. i did see a thing in a sport/pp catalogue......here in France.
I'd like to know what it's used for, the why's and where's.
Any help would be appreciated

Curious

[Ramon]

You can get training whips from most places that sell K9 protection training equipment like Ray Allen, K9Equipment, K9Training, and ????????.
I'm not an expert, but I've seen how it's used. The helper at our Shutzhund club uses whips quite often. Most of the time he just cracks the whip on the ground to make noise (kind of like a gun test), but sometimes he does hit the dog with it. I think he uses it to bring out their defense drive, and it also helps him "read" the dog. The dog's reaction to the whip during protection training can tell you quite a bit about his temperament.

[Leader]

Thanks Ramon,

Here in France you can only get them from highly specialized shops. I can't image our trainers or helpers/decoys using them,.....unfortunately, I suppose.

Thanks again,

;)

[valdes43]

From what I've learned the whip can be used for several purposes. The first encounter with a whip can tell you something about the dogs tempermant.

The whip can be used for aggression just as it can be used for a conditioned reinforcer to prey. It can be a great tool if used efficiently.

You can overload a dog with whip. Generally a rottie is naturally an aggression type dog so it is not untypical to overload a rottie with too much whip. Use caution, we still want the dog to think while working.

[Mattweiser]

another issue that can arise form overuse is that the dog becomes dependant on the whip in order to go into drive...

if there is no whipping noises, the dog can be flat... bring the whip out and BAM drive.... that is not very practical.. but used sparingly the whip can be a great training tool..

I guess the point is, just like any other tool, it has it good and bad points

[Leader]

Thanks y'all,

I'm afraid that there will be no question of using one here. I don't think I'd want the guys at my club to try it out on MY dog/dogs anyway...I'd want them to learn first!lol:D
Bye for now;)

[laurlitt]

I have seen the whip used in OB training. This works well with dogs who get excited for the whip. I've seen it as a tool for a fast recall and I've seen it to build drive to retrieve the dumbbell. I can't even make the darn thing make a noise let alone use it as a training tool

[Storm]

I can't believe the huge misconceptions revolving around the use of a whip. Hey but then again if you sit and carefully watch helpers out there working with it, trying to understand what his using it for at certain points, you'll probably not be surprised. If you just walk out there for the first time with a dog, and whack the whip, you will definitely see what the dogs nerves are like so this is ONE fundamental aspect of it but as training progresses it is to be used in a way that maintains the effectiveness. After a few sessions the dog will form an association with the sound of the whip, so in future we can use it to enable a dog to " load" as he approaches the field. So we put the dog in drive for a specific purpose. Depending on the dog, training, thresholds etc. the whip will have a different effect. A whip and its use is not directly proportional to a dog's defense. Pressure is sometimes required when correcting a bite and may be used in this instance. Dogs that show a little stress can be exposed to more stress via this but brought through that stress using the drive, thus overriding the stress factor, slowly conditioning the dog to a consecutive, higher stress factor, bringing him through it every time. Then obviously in a trial the dog's reaction to stick blows is assessed. Greatly misconstrued locally especially with very defensive dogs during the early stages of training and bite development.

[Leader]

Storm,
I personally don't have any misconceptions. No one I know here in France has ever used the whip thing, except I suppose in pp. My question is, how is it used, why, etc. If it's so good, we could use it here. Just don't for now.

Any good reading on the subject?:o :p :D

[bgdawgrr]

Leader,
Several of the members of my Ring club have ties or have been trained in France. The whip is used, but the rattle stick is much more common. You would generally use the whip to:
1) Simulate gunfire. Not as loud as a .22, so you can start with the pop and also do many more of them. It also puts a lot of presure on. You can pop the whip far closer to the dog than shooting blanks upward without hurting your dog.
2) Put lots of defence on a dog. The whip is more of a threat than the stick. Further out from the decoy to. Great test of nerves. Lots of presure, especially for a weak nerve dog.
3) Test the nerves and courge of the dog.
There are more reseason, but I can not address them as I am very much still learning and others can answer them much more thoroulghy than I could.
The whip comes out maybe one in three training sessions, and then only for short periods of time.
Hope this helps.

[WorkinDogz]

Just as Matt said.....many dogs become reliant on the whip to create the atmosphere and stimulate the drive...

Personally; I prefer the helper to be the only tool needed.....and tend to avoid using things like whips that the dog will NEVER see in trial.

I've been a member of clubs with 40+ people...and been the only one who didn't have the whip used to stimulate the dogs.

Just my opinion; but I train what they see in trial as much as possible......so to use a whip isn't something I do.

[Leader]

bgdawgrr,
Thanks for the info. I'll share it with the folks at my club. We use a 9mm gun for dogs that are not gunshy and have NO gun problems and 6mm for the others at long range to start with. I'll have to see if I can find any 'literature' in French about the subject for the helpers/decoys at the club (one is army trained.....shiver, shiver the other ring and campagne and mondio ring and the third army and ring). We don't do the French equivalent to Sch nor IPO called here RCI where you only use the sleeve (frabo?).
Again thanks.

Workin Dogz,
I too try not to use things my dog won't be seeing in the ring. Question of behavior and (forget the word) and getting them used to the real thing as much as possible, while knowing it is training.
Nite nite all.
I'm dead tired

[Leader]

WD,
the word is conditioning!

Yupee (sp?):D

[Chuck]

Leader i think there might be some confusion in your meaning of whip and the meaning being used here. The whip is not a bull whip. It is just a stick with a flat peice of leather and a cord attached to the end called a popper.

These whips are used by German schutzhund clubs as well. As said here already they are primarily used to make noise and stimulate the dog.

[Leader]

Thanks Chuck,

I have seen one whip in a pp catalogue and it is definitely not a bull whip, as you said. Thanks for the info. It just doesn't seemed to be used here. I'll talk to my club about it, but....as mentioned we use 6 or 9mm blanks.

Thanks again,:D