Schutzhund and PP

[cucciolone]

An encounter I just had with a reeling drug addict (on a dark secluded trail in a deserted park) prompts me to ask:

how would a dog trained only in Schutzhund react if his owner were threatened in a real life situation?

I think I know the answer already- that Schutzhund is a sport, and you can only truly rely on a dog to defend you if he has been specifically trained in PP- so my follow-up question is this:

do Schutzhund and PP training conflict? Can they be done simultaneously?

Michela

[Mattweiser]

yes and no....

you like that?? :p

the foundation work is exactly the same (prey drive promotion, and targeting and grip development)

they only differ down the road.... and then they only interfere if your trainer makes them...

that isn't a very good answer, but it is the best that I can do in 1000 words or less. :D

my quick solution/idea is to train train for SchH with PP in the background.. meaning do not do things to cause the dog to become prey-locked, or sleeve focused....

some, not all SchH trainers use methods that could cause this to be an issue... but a well-rounded SchH trainer, will not!!

was that vague enough???? Mick or WD coud answer this more thoroughly

[rottnvegas]

Cucciolone, the biggest difference between schutzhand and pp is that in sch. the dogs can get very sleeve happy. Meaning they are focusing on the sleeve and not the person wearing it. Because in pp they use all kinds of different tools like body bite suits and hidden sleeves so the dog won't get "sleeve happy". The other reason is most sch. work is developed and maintaned mainly through prey drive and not defense. Thats not to say there are not some very civil dogs doing sch. work. Civil is a whole different topic but basically is the dogs desire or ability to actually bite a human. Nobody know your dog like you. How did Deisel react when this drug addict incident happened? I have read some of your posts about your dog and he sounds like a very confident who would be happy to protect you. The only way to truly tell is to set him up. Stage a scenario with a trusted helper and see how your dog reacts. Let us know what happens. :D

[Mick Trainer]

This depends largly on the dog and the trainer. There is no question for me that serious PP work can be done similtanously with sport work such a SchH as long as the dog has the desired genetic incl drive, nerve etc and the trainer doing the work is capable of working a dog to it's genetic potential.

In recent times a lot has been written about a sport dog's lack of ability on the street. This has come about as a result of trainers locking a dog in prey (where the dog is only doing the work due to a desire to grab the sleeve and is in no way focussed upon the man) so that it is able to get through the desired routine even when it does not have the required nerve to do such work. A dog that is locked in prey can sustain much pressure as it is totally goal focussed about getting it's prize. However once the sleeve is removed the dog is useless as it will never have the required strength nor training to do the work. The same is also true with a strong dog that is only trained in it's prey drive.

However this is not always the case. A number of trainers still want thier dogs to do the sport as well as do the work on the street. It is all in the training and the dog having the natural inbuilt genetics for such work. Dogs like Stromfonts Brawnson are examples of this. This is a SchH dog who is also a Police dog working on the streets and was the 2000 US Police Dog Nationals winner. Work him and tell me he is not serious.

As too what should you do well it depends on what you want. I train all my dogs for PP as this work for me is of a higher level and makes the dog capable on the street. However all my dogs train for sport routines as well and I have a large focus on the Hold and Bark as I find it is a very important training tool as well as a real test of the dogs charater. A dog can be capable of both.

Mick

[Storm]

Good post Mick!;) Emphasis should be placed on training the dog that it sees the bite as been civil, even within the "sports arena". This is achieved by "balancing the drives" so that the dog acts accordingly. We worked a few dogs last weekend, some having been on the Dutch, national team. These dogs where extremely high driven prey dogs, good nerves and with all that you are able to get high 90's in all facets of the sport. Because of the high drive and solid nerves, the dogs are only worked on the nice side, for their purpose and the competitors intentions it's all that is required. The end product is very impressive yet, surprising enough these are just sports dogs. Not because of the dogs genetic limitations, but plainly because this is all that is required, high scores and thus the appropriate training for that purpose. Very nice dogs, yet if the dogs where more "balanced" they would be awesome! It is pretty easy to train for this purpose where you basically just have to show the dog the way, in succession as required adding control and intensity as you go along. But developing a dog where you change its outlook of the "criminal" goes a bit deeper. You gotta know the dog's limitations, you got to have more feeling, you have to add stress and show the dog how to deal with it in a manner that increases the dog's confidence levels. Every time the dog works through these "stress levels" they, through training, "balance" or slip into a comfort zone. Then we move on increasing the intensity, showing the dog the way. This is relevant to whatever exercise we expose the dog to, bottom line is the training must have a positive influence on the dog making him stronger and not a negative one thus breaking down the dog. We therefore work towards getting that balance in conjunction with putting in the control and working towards a program maintaining the correct or required intensity within a certain mindset in the dog. This requires feeling and the ability to read the dog and been able to put things into perspective. So with the correct dog and helper you can do it, just make sure that the helper is able to recognise the dog, for what it is and knows where he is going and what he wants to achieve, without this insight there will be problems.;)

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by rottnvegas
How did Deisel react when this drug addict incident happened? I have read some of your posts about your dog and he sounds like a very confident who would be happy to protect you.

Wow, rottnvegas, I'm impressed! You remember us! :)

It was kind of funny, because it happened just after I had finished watching a scary movie in which people who seem real turn out to be ghosts! And suddenly I was on this dark deserted trail, in a park in which I've never encountered a soul-- and a hoodlum drug addict popped out of nowhere like an apparition! AHHHH! ;)

When Diesel saw him stumbling straight towards us, from about 100 meters away, he did become very sharp and alert, and began to fixate on him. But I wanted to avoid a brush with the addict at all costs, so I said 'Diesel let's go!' and spun around and started walking the other way. He obeyed me immediately, which is great-- but then of course I had the addict on my heels, and he was gaining on us very rapidly! I practically broke into a run towards the street.

I wouldn't have gotten so scared if I had had Diesel between us; maybe I shouldn't turn my back on the addicts next time??

The only way to truly tell is to set him up. Stage a scenario with a trusted helper and see how your dog reacts.

Oooo. I don't know who I could get to do that. If I asked the helper who is training us to pretend to accost me, wouldn't that damage his relationship with Diesel?

Thank you all so much for your fascinating answers. I've printed them, now I'll study them and try to figure out what they mean, exactly! ;)

Michela

[rottnvegas]

Cucciolone, of course I recocgnize you and Diesel, I always remember smart people with true desire to train their dog's the right way.

As far as you helper's relationship with Diesel goes it all depends on what has occured so far. I was under the impression you have a helper doing agition for Diesel, that is the person I would recommend, not your trainer. It would be best to have the person to wear a disguise and put on some strange cologne he never wears too. That way Diesel won't associate the agitator as just another decoy to bite. This is only if you are really not sure how he will perform in "real" life. This is also only if your trainer thinks Deisel is at the right level in his training to take this step. Good luck and keep us updated...

:p

[cucciolone]

I spoke to my trainer and his assistant about PP training, and they both told me that there is no real need to get into it. It seems that in their personal experience, the Rotties, Dobermans and GSDs they've known have always reacted defensively on behalf of their owners, regardless of training.

They're convinced that Diesel would defend me in case of need, citing as well what they've observed to be his incredible attachment to me. The assistant said that I should have stood my ground with the addict, and if he had had the misfortune to stumble against me, "it would have been the first and last time; I guarantee you that Diesel would have taken him apart." (What he actually said was a bit more graphic, but I just ate lunch.)

I would love to stage the scenario that you suggest, rottnvegas, because, since the incident in the park, when I brilliantly maneuvered myself into a position of vulnerability, I've been wondering exactly what Diesel would be inclined to do in my defense. But if the trainers I work with (and otherwise value) are not up for it, then there's nothing I can do- I'm not sure that there are any dedicated PP people within three or four hours of my area. Ah, well...

Yesterday I returned to the same park, and upon hearing a noise I said: "Diesel! Who's that?!" He became absolutely alert, and suddenly moved in front of me, cutting me off and sort of holding me back with his whole body, completely blocking the path between me and anything that might move in the darkness. Although not a bona fide defense test, it was reassuring in its own way.

But thanks anyway, guys! ;) Your answers were all very interesting. I read them over a few times, and I think I follow you now, even if I don't really have access to the kinds of things you mention.

Michela

[Mick Trainer]

Michela,

Whilst it would be nice if all Rotts, GSD and dobes would protect their owner in such a situation, this is just plain fantasy. The realism is the most do not have what it takes genetically to defend their owner even with the correct training and extremely few have what it takes to do so without such training.

This does not mean that the dog will not stand in front of you and look very mean and tough, nor even that if you are fighting this person that the dog may even take a small bite to deter, but the real test comes when the person is not scared of the dog and keeps coming even though the dog is giving him/her their best defense to drive them away, or when the owner is knocked down, etc. There are a number of times when Rotts, GSDs, Dobes and many, many other protection capable breeds are found wanting in real life senarios. Training is the only true way to be sure.

This of course does not change your lack of suitable trainers etc but thought you should haear another point of view. I am the one people called when "I got attacked and my dog did nothing".

Mick.

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by Mick Trainer
Michela,

Whilst it would be nice if all Rotts, GSD and dobes would protect their owner in such a situation, this is just plain fantasy.

(Aw, Mick! I almost slid away clean without anyone challenging my last post!) I know that it's a fantasy, but my trainer and his assistant are convinced otherwise. :( What can I do? There is only one other trainer within a 300 mile radius of my house that advertises a specialty in PP, and that is a man that I've been most urgently cautioned away from by others; he reportedly employs violent methods.

At this point, what I know for sure is only what everyone else on the forum knows: that in a lot of cases the Rottweiler's size and reputation will deter a potential aggressor. Whether Diesel's nerves and natural instincts would lead him to aggressively and successfully defend me from a very determined assailant without training, I do not know. Right now I'm trying to take comfort in the fact that he's a very confident boy, has been guarding me from a very young age, and has had a tendency to try and prevent even my husband from touching me.

There are a number of times when Rotts, GSDs, Dobes and many, many other protection capable breeds are found wanting in real life senarios.

Ouch!

The realism is the most do not have what it takes genetically to defend their owner even with the correct training and extremely few have what it takes to do so without such training.

OUCH!!!

I am the one people called when "I got attacked and my dog did nothing".

Hey, cut it out, willya?! You're scaring me!! :p ;)

Thank you Mick! I'm still waiting for you or one of the other trainers on the forum to get the urge to live la dolce vita, and set up shop close to my house. :) In the meantime, the local Rottweiler club might be able to suggest someone. I'd be willing to travel a considerable distance for a great trainer, but I'd like to have some very strong references from a reliable source before I start. I think I'll also write to the American Street Ring association, and see if there are any practitioners here in Italy.

Michela

[cucciolone]

I hate to bother you all again, but I'm getting a little discouraged. Some of you may know that in the past Diesel has made my heart stand still a number of times by 'defending' me from innocent passersby in the street. (As lately as a month and a half ago, he decided that an acquaintance of mine that I stopped to chat with was standing too close to me, and he jumped up and deliberately stopped just short of putting his mouth on her breastbone, and then jumped back down. It was a definite 'Leave- NOW!! gesture, and it was pretty frightening.) Thanks to my current trainer things have gotten much more manageable, but when I walk Diesel I still have a pretty strong residual fear that he will be aggressive with the poor people who venture too close to me. So his innate desire to defend me from innocent people worries me-- and now I have to fear that he would just clam up and not defend me from a serious threat, too?

And a word of explanation as far as my reluctance to change trainers: you have to be very careful about whom you call for help in Italy. An antiquated 'iron fist' mentality prevails with more people than you would imagine. I have heard people from the animal protection services enthusiastically advocate hitting a dog to train it, and there are some nationally respected trainers in my area who resemble lunatics more closely than they do normal human beings. That may make it easier for you to understand why I'm not eager to discard my current non-violent trainer, despite the discrepancies between his defense theories and yours. It's one strike against him, but he's generally impressed me other than that.

On top of everything else that's going on, my husband, without warning, decided to put my mind at ease by testing Diesel's reaction to an attack upon me himself. Last night I was lying on the bed with Diesel at my feet, and all of a sudden my husband ran into the room and towards me with his arm raised, as though he were going to hit me. Diesel unhesitatingly jumped up and intercepted him, grabbing the raised arm hard in his mouth. My husband yelled 'Leave it!,' and pulled away and ran around to the other side of the bed to gain access to me that way, but Diesel was on top of him wherever he went, he wouldn't let him get anywhere near me. He growled and again grabbed his arm and bit down, staring into my husband's eyes-- and Diesel wasn't playing, he was very serious. I had to get off the bed to put a stop to it, or they would have gone on like that forever.

Then today while we were outside working on prey drive with the little stuffed sausage thing (is it called a tug?), my husband started hitting me with the thing on the shoulder- the poor guy is trying hard to prove that Diesel would save me! Diesel jumped up and bit his forearm hard enough to make him yell very loudly (and my husband is a stoic man).

I've told my husband not to stage anymore crazy attack scenarios, and he's promised me that he won't. But what I want to ask you is this: in light of the dicey trainer situation in my area, do you think there is any way I could interpret Diesel's willingness to hurt my husband (whom he loves) in my defense, as well as his general attitude towards strangers who approach me, as an adequate sign that he would be willing to defend me in the street? That is- can I just leave the PP issue where it stands, with my husband's little do-it-yourself tests, and stick with my non-PP trainer? Or do the things I've told you about Diesel's reactions mean nothing?

I won't be offended if nobody answers me because I know that I'm being an enormous pain! But if you do, I promise that I'll leave you alone for as long as I possibly can. ;)

[rottnvegas]

Michela, I think it goes without saying that you have a serious problem on your hand's now. I almost don't even know where to start. But, here goes.

The incident that happened with your friend when you were just talking is HIGHLY unacceptable. Incidents like these are why our breed has a bad name. Your dog is taking it upon himself to decide who to "protect" you from. Again, HIGHLY unacceptable. Diesel is so confused right now, he doesn't know what you want from him. That is why specialized training in personal protection is necassary with him if you are going to keep expecting to use him as protection. He needs to understand that you are the one who decides who he bites, not him. The problem is that you are trying to get him to act as a bodyguard but not taking the proper steps. I hope when he attempted to bite your friend you leash corrected his head off. He better have been in big trouble for that.

The next problem is your husband. Earlier when I suggested you stage a scenario with an experienced helper with Diesel what did you say? You were worried it would damage your dog's relationship with your trainer. Well, what do you think happened when your husband came in like a fool waving his arms "to see what he would do"? Now, your dog thinks everyone is an enemy, not just strangers but loved ones like your husband. It goes without saying that this is going to take some serious work to undo what has been done. I can't believe your husband enticed your dog take a bite out of him....

You need to decide right now what you are going to do with Diesel. Is he going to be a personal protection, or is he going to be your pet. Stop riding the fence and make a decision. This is completely unfair to that poor animal. If you can't trust any trainers in Italy to teach your dog to do protection than you need to stop confusing him and make him a pet. Maybe you should invest your time into a concealed weapons class and get yourself a gun. That way Diesel can enjoy being a dog and not have to worry about protecting you from your husband. Good luck

[Mick Trainer]

I agree with Rottnvegas in that all you are doing by wanting Diesel to Protect you without the correct training is to confuse him and to place strangers, yourself and Diesel in a true position of danger. If Diesel is to protect you then he needs to understand who he is to protect you against. At the present you wont him to defend you and to make a decision as to who from. So then when he goes to protect you from this person standing to close to him he is told off. Of course over several repatitions he will learn not to do this. So then when a real life senario comes along he will be thinking "ugh uh, I ain't falling for that" and do nothing. For a dog to be a safe, sound member of society that can be trusted around strangers and be depended upon to defend its owner in a real life situation he must be trained so as to learn who is and who is not a threat and who he/she is to defend against. To rely on instinct is to run a very big risk of the dog getting it wrong and biting someone who is totally innocent. So I agree that you need to make a decision and train him or just train him to be a pet that at least you can rely on not to get it wrong.

As for the senarios your husband did, firstly I do not like them, secondly they show you nothing except that your dog does suffer the potential for weakness and going into avoidance in a real life situation. "How so" I can hear you asking? Well firslty let me tell you that your dog will be comfortable with your husband and will not feel the same stress he would feel under a real life senario. Having been involved in real life work before the atmosphere around these situations is full-on and really does test a dogs resolve. Further to this is that your husband did not need to go to the doctor or hospital. Your dog has not bitten with all his might otherwise there would be many holes in your husband right now and quite possably broken bones. This could be from many different reasons. Firslty is that Diesel was not commited to the fight due to conflict with the fact it was your husband and his master (you may be his number one but there would be some relationship with your husband). The other reason is that Diesel hesitated due to nerve and a lack of true commitment to the fight due to fear. I doubt that this is the case but it is possible. Either way the lack of commitment shows that the test is firstly useless and secondly only really shows a weakness within diesel. This does not mean he cannot be trained just that he is not reliable due to this test.

I do not like senarios on such a dog as yet as he has not been taught the combative skills to deal with such a threat. But with training, real life senarios certainly serve a purpose, but for me it is unrealistic for a dog to combat such a threat without the training necessary to do so. In our every day life we rightly teach our dogs not to bite people. This is just common sence. But then we expect them to turn around and fight one or more creatures that can be two or three times it's size with gusto and vigor. This is unrealisitic on many fronts. Firslty is the physicalness of it. Secondly is the metal strength necessary for such work. A dog that is to fight a human, who does not fear him/her, who is vastly stronger, who physically resembles a master who he is subordanate to (if you as a human are superior to him and he does not combat you then what is in his mind when this senario presents itself. Further to this is that in a dogs hierachial system the "Alpha" does the cambating if the pack is under threat. In this case that means you. This is why dogs often bite their owner in a fight situation as the dog wishes to be on the winning side of this dominance dispute which may mean he/she comes in to finish you off), must do so with a clear head and be totally commited to the fight. If in the back of the dogs mind is a thought of "mum says I cannot do this" then the dog will go in half hearted. Many, many police handlers will tell you about a dog that was not committed to the fight and how this did nothing more but put them and the other police officers in great risk. The dog must believe that he can beat anyone, anywhere, at anytime if he is going to be an effective guardian in real life. This in the vast majority of cases only comes with experience and training.

So for me if you want a dog for PP then it MUST be trained. If not then it is trained to be a pet. In saying all this above this does not in anyway mean a dog cannot be a pet and a protector. All my dogs are pets first and protectors second. They are all friendly, sociable dogs who enjoy the company of children (and who go to kindergartens to teach children how to interact with children), who behave in the show ring, etc etc etc. They are trained that the only time that they are to combat a person is on my say-so and if I am physically attacked and that they are to stop instantly once again on my say so. In these times they are totally commited to doing the job as this is what their training dictates. This way there is no grey area. Black and White. I am at no time relying on an animal with a very low interlect to dictate who is and who is not a threat.

I hope that this clear is up for you,

Mick.

[Dei]

Amen on not allowing your dog to dictate who is a threat, Mick.

Wasn't it German who pointed out that only 3% of dog bites are justified? I'm sure the vast majority of bites come from the dog making that decision.

And we wonder why the courts take such a dim view of biting dogs...

[Mick Trainer]

Dei,

I dont know the actual statistical figures on it but I would say that that is about right. Ignorance as to true canine behavior causes a lot of problems both in the courts and on the street. If people would see aggression for what it is instead of some make believe "Protective Instinct" then the number of unjustifiable dog bites would rapidly reduce.

Michela,

Non of what I write here applies to you as I know that you see Diesels behavior as a problem and are a responsible owner who is taking action to fix this.

Mick.