To Bite Train or Not to Bite train Teething Pups

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by valdes43
I also IMO believe that head shaking is an involuntary genetic reflex such as blinking your eye. Used to finish off the prey. I don't think they think about it, they just do it.

Same here... ;)

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
Muck,

I am also in agreance with Valdes and Mick...

I had mentioned before that I wasn't sure why the shaking bothered you... It makes me laugh when my dog does that.. to me, it is a sign that he got really revved up, so I try to use that as an indicator.

Yes I agree also, that many people (SV come to mind) that have decided that shaking and other types of "true agression" signs are undesireable.... from what I have been able to acsertain (in my short tenure in this world of dogs) is that the thinking is that if the dog has strong enough nerves, he should never be bothered by the helper... well, I think we all know what this leads to-
Prey-Locked dogs ...

IMHO shaking is nothing more than a emotional outlet to relieve perceived stress.. if the dog is showing stress indicators, that simply means that the dog has reached its respective defense threshold... does this make sense?? Am I on the right track??

furthermore, the simple fact that the dog has reached its defense threshold is not a problem, unless the dogs defense drive is no substantial enough to withstand the event...

meaning, as long as the dog stayed on the bite, his defense drive is sufficient.. meaning you have a defensive dog, not a bad thing as long as you recognize it as such, and train accordingly..

and just because your dog is defensive, does not preclude it from being capable of working in prey, just that it will be more inclined to be defensive.... but these things are supposed to be a benefit, when talking protection, aren't they??

did I make any sense just now?? Mick?? Working?? German?? Storm?? Muck?? Valdes?? Help!!!:D

Matt,

This all pretty much makes sence and is true enough. A dog reaching his emotional defensive threshold as you say is no problem and is something that all dogs sport or otherwise should be doing at some time.

Non of us have the perfect dog and must work with what we have or get another dog, (which will still be flawed in some way.) However the greatest mistake I see in recent times is helpers and handlers trying to change the charater of the dog to get some result or picture of what the dog should be doing in their mind rather than just working with what the dog brings too the table and getting the best out of him/her. This is a prime problem seen with trainers who work to a formula. The theories that have been developed over time in regards this feild (such as shaking being weakness) are only that, theories, that apply in most cases but not all.

By all accounts the aformentioned dog probably does have a few nerve issues that may be helped in drive, but if we concentrate too much on trying to cure his shaking we are invariably working against him and are more likley to weaken him not build him up. Look at the overall picture of the dog rather than simply one behavior or another. Trying to alter him will only create conflict and confusion and possably lead us to be forever fixing holes within his training that we could most likely have simply avoided. If he bites good then that job is done and move on.

Mick.

[Storm]

MD, what does the dog do once on the sleeve? For example if the helper gives a bite on lead and walks around in a circle, just walking. Does the dog hold the bite? Does he shift it, targeting the elbow? Does the dog counter deeper into the sleeve? Continuosly? Is it mouthy? etc. Also ,I don't know at what stage the dog is, while doing this what does the dog do if the helper turns and drives for a short moment, still while on lead in a circle? Does the bite weaken, shift or does he maintain the bite, pulling? Does he counter with the "pressure"? Obviously assuming you have worked in succession up to this point.