To Bite Train or Not to Bite train Teething Pups

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
as for the "shark shaking"... is it really severe? because IMHO there is nothing wrong with a dog that is very intense, and really wants to kill its prey... as long as you make it a point to attempt to keep the dog as close to prey as possible vs. defense...

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
We all have done things we wish we could take back Muck...... The best trainers recognize it as a mistake; and not just learn from it....but are able recognize the "signs" in future dogs.

To quote a person that I greatly respect, "the day that you feel that you cannot make mistakes with a dog, you should stop training dogs"

we all can, and will, continue to make mistakes, the key is to minimize those mistakes, and attempt to fix what you can, as quickly as possible

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
as for the "shark shaking"... is it really severe? because IMHO there is nothing wrong with a dog that is very intense, and really wants to kill its prey... as long as you make it a point to attempt to keep the dog as close to prey as possible vs. defense...

Yeah, its pretty bad. I'm so jealous of those dogs that take the slipped sleeve after a really great bite and just hold it in the mouth lookig straight ahead. No way on God's green earth with my boy, not yet at least although the Flinks technique is really starting to work. (Hate to keep harping on Bernhard, but his stuff is really good) You'd have to see it to believe it. Totally out in left field with the desire to kill by shaking. Pisses me off. Went to a seminar last weekend with a world class trial helper and trainer, I was so embarrassed at the lack of calmness (he almost broke my shin when the sleeve hit it whiel shaking).

Couple of comments from the speaker -> "Vell, hee eees a RRRRottveileh (somtimes those diehard GSD folks drive me crazy)
and
"Dat's alotta dog " :D :D

[Mattweiser]

LOL, I assume that running him in circles doesn't work ;)

my question though, is...

is he chewing the sleeve while on the bite, countering while on the sleeve, or just alot of shaking after it is slipped?

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Mattweiser
LOL, I assume that running him in circles doesn't work ;)

my question though, is...

is he chewing the sleeve while on the bite, countering while on the sleeve, or just alot of shaking after it is slipped?

Circles are a waste of time right now, It's like dragging a shark, although, I have been working him on a double line - one to the harness or agitation collar and the other to the prong - When we run, I usually prong himn a bit to snap him out of the tunnelvision. As far as behavior on the sleeve, he's pretty committed to the full bite, but will creep to the elbow if given the chance. The only time he seem mouthy is when his initial grip is not so full, then he counters trying to get a better grip. The violent shaking kicks in when slipped.

Here's a question sure to stir it up a bit -> Do you think the Rotti shake is a genetic or training issue?

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Muckdogs


Here's a question sure to stir it up a bit -> Do you think the Rotti shake is a genetic or training issue?

Genetic all the way!!! It's an act of punishing!!! :)

[Mattweiser]

It's gotta be genetics!!

but if you don't like it, it is a training issue! ;)

[poohbearsmom]

it COULD be genetics - Deiter bout bowled me over - WHAT circle?????? LOL He shook that sleeve so hard, I could hardly keep my balance - Dat's alotta dog....
Elisabeth

[Mattweiser]

I know a woman that actually had her ankle broken by her Rottie shaking a sleeve... those cuffs are hard!!

[Muckdogs]

PBM ->Well, certainly could be genetics since we have a common gene pool. Still a real pain though.

Here's a follow up to my previous ?? -> If you believe that it is a genetics question, can you train through it and eventualy get the calmness or is it a waste of time and should we just be working on a full bite and a reliable "out" and say screw the carry/circles and calming. After all, when in trial does the helper slip the sleeve? If the bite is full, albeit a little hectic (a little growly and sharky if the helper is weak and lets him cheat a tad) and the "out " is reliable, why worry about what happens when the slip comes? Maybe I have my associations backwards. I have always thought that the calmness would promote a fuller bite and a more reliable out. What if you (and we will shortly) already have a full grip and reliable out. Do you still need the calmness. Don't get me wrong, calmness is a thing of beauty, but if it ain't gonna happen due to genetics and we don't really need it, why try?

Am I spending an inordinate amount ot time and effort on something that doesn't really matter in actuality?

This paradox is starting to remind me of when I got uptight about some grumbling over the food bowl. He did it, still does it and probably will always do it. The boy just is driven for food. Yet, he will come off his bowl every time if I tell him to. So, why should I care, just for the sake of caring, if he grumbles a bit as long as I have the control,(caveat-> we don't have any kids and he eats totally by himself on the back porch so there is zero danger of strangers interfering). See the similarity. Maybe I'm just making it an issue of total control in both cases when it really doesn't have to be. Thoughts???

[Muckdogs]

As a follow up, the above was brought up with the full realization that we are NEVER going to the "Worlds" or "Nationals", at least as competitors :D :D :D :D We're jsut interested in the club trial level, so who cares is we lose a few points for being a little hectic.

[Mick Trainer]

Muckdogs,

I would say a definate "YES" that you are spending too much time worrying about something that in the end will serve no purpose other than to try to get something out of this dog that the dog will not natually show and thus goes against his character and temperament. For me you are better to work what is there rather than trying to change him for somthing that really will not effect his overall performance. For what I do in bite training I see if the dog will carry naturally, try to help this out if possible very quickly and then move on. Either he does or he doesn't. Calmness on the bite matters, calmness once off the helper for me is something that has been blown out of proportion in recent times.

For the record (this is meant not for your dog but in general), shaking the sleeve once off the helper is not always a sign of poor genetics as some sport people would like to believe but can actually be a sign of very good genetics as the dog can be venting due to having a non classical aggression (more often seen in police service, personal protection senarios than sport these days), or that the dog has good genetics but poor training causing high level conflict that makes the dog loose clarity in the exercise, as well as many other reasons. Genetics of course is one of them but to say that a dog that shakes the sleeve is clearly weaker than a dog that does not is not always correct.

Mick.

[valdes43]

Carrying is suppose to be a technique to free up the dog. Dog is overloaded in aggression, we use carrying to help release the overload therefore promoting a calmer bite with less hecticness. Everything is to strive for that balance which is key temperamant in our working dogs.

Have you tried putting a lead on the sleeve and immediately after the helper releases start pulling the sleeve and dog in a circular fashion until he gives in?

If you're already having issues with a poor grip while on the helper and hecticness I think carrying would probably be a great idea. But if the grip is full then so be it. If you have found other techniques to relieve the pressure then work with those.

That is the dog. I definately think you can make a big issue out of it that's not really necessary. Once you open up that can of worms who knows what you'll get. JMO In no way am I an expert.

[Mattweiser]

Muck,

I am also in agreance with Valdes and Mick...

I had mentioned before that I wasn't sure why the shaking bothered you... It makes me laugh when my dog does that.. to me, it is a sign that he got really revved up, so I try to use that as an indicator.

Yes I agree also, that many people (SV come to mind) that have decided that shaking and other types of "true agression" signs are undesireable.... from what I have been able to acsertain (in my short tenure in this world of dogs) is that the thinking is that if the dog has strong enough nerves, he should never be bothered by the helper... well, I think we all know what this leads to-
Prey-Locked dogs ...

IMHO shaking is nothing more than a emotional outlet to relieve perceived stress.. if the dog is showing stress indicators, that simply means that the dog has reached its respective defense threshold... does this make sense?? Am I on the right track??

furthermore, the simple fact that the dog has reached its defense threshold is not a problem, unless the dogs defense drive is no substantial enough to withstand the event...

meaning, as long as the dog stayed on the bite, his defense drive is sufficient.. meaning you have a defensive dog, not a bad thing as long as you recognize it as such, and train accordingly..

and just because your dog is defensive, does not preclude it from being capable of working in prey, just that it will be more inclined to be defensive.... but these things are supposed to be a benefit, when talking protection, aren't they??

did I make any sense just now?? Mick?? Working?? German?? Storm?? Muck?? Valdes?? Help!!!:D

[valdes43]

A national/world competitor once said at a seminar "Train what you've got". Stop thinking too much about theory, does my dog have too much prey or defense. Look at the bite, is it full? If not use prey-freeing techniques to help the dog become calmer. Is the dog not giving seriousness to his bites and lacks intensities? Use techniques that promote aggression. Let the dog tell you what he needs by his performance.

I also IMO believe that head shaking is an involuntary genetic reflex such as blinking your eye. Used to finish off the prey. I don't think they think about it, they just do it.