Orthopedic Specialist vs OFA

[Skip]

In another thread it was mentioned that some breeders rely more on the results for grading elbows from an orthopedic specialist as opposed to OFA. Is it common for the 2 agencies to differ a lot on the reading of elbow x-rays? I could be wrong, but I thought the reading of elbows was much more straight forward (as opposed to hips). Is this becoming more the norm for grading elbows? For those of you that prefer using an orthopedic specialist, do you then usually put the actual documentation sheet supporting the grade for the dog on your website? If there is a definite pattern of OFA reading the x-rays very differently, is there a way to bring this discrepancy to OFA's attention so that they can re-examine their process?

[frontierrots]

The reading of elbows is not straightforward.

Ortho specialists use 2-4 views to accurately read elbows. They are thus able to determine if a dog has OCD, UAP, FCP or DJD

DJD in and of itself is not an indication of a problem per the ortho vets I've spoken too. It is actually a very common finding in athletic mammals (humand and other) I forget the actual %

However because OFA ONLY asks for and reads ONE view of an elbow they are unable to accuratly diagnose FCP in many cases. They came to the conclusion that BECAUSE DJD is sometimes present with mild FCP that they would fail all dogs with DJD no matter if unilateral or bilateral; grade 1,11, 111 whatever

So yes if I had access to an ortho specialist and he cleared my dog's elbows I would surely accept their 2-4 view diagnosis rather than a DJD rating/fail from OFA

Some day OFA will get it and require at LEAST 2 views. Then again I pray they will "get it" and disallow practitioner cardiac clearances

[Anton]

Years ago, when Dr. Barclay Slocum (an Orthopedic Specialist who invented TPLO knee surgery) of Oregon was still alive, I was able to take Quaid's mother down to do her x-rays. He must have put her in every pretzel position possible to get hips and elbow x-rays. (He also did THREE views of each elbow).

He stated that there really is no way to get a 100% accurate reading of the elbows with just ONE view. He said minimum, there should be two. One flexed from the side, and one open taken from the top.

He said he had been trying for years to get OFA to require two views, but they didn't think it was necessary. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago, because it would have been nice to see if his nagging would have changed OFA's mind.

I have thought about going ahead and sending in 2 views anyway, but I've heard that OFA will only read the side view.

[poohbearsmom]

I have a bitch with DJD 1 bilaterally. She jumps, bounces, runs like the wind, trots beautifully, and can spin on a dime. I dare anyone to tell me at 5yo (next month) that she is crippled in any way, shape or form.

Her first breeding was to a DJD 1 unilateral male. A couple of the pups will have prelims done later this spring, but at this time, no problems at all in any of them. That breeding was done primarily to see what she would produce with a VERY correct male (phenotypically), and a male that was a little laid back (she is VERY high drive).

The current breeding was done to a clear male, because I wanted to work on the elbows in my breeding program. So now I am.

Personally, I will not breed to an elbow grade 2 or 3, even if my dog/bitch is bilateral clear. From what I've researched, grade one can be, as Diane stated, due to stress on the athletic body, stress on a young body, etc... these dogs are not greyhounds, they have heavy bodies and big bones, even when we keep them slim. Grade 2, 3 is more likely hereditary in nature, and actually dysplasia from my understanding.

The one thing that people need to understand is that breeding is not, nor will it ever be an exact science. Mother Nature is far too sneaky for that! As breeders, we need to know the lines we breed to, get help from those who know more that we do (our mentors - every good breeding program has at least one!), and take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt (and a shot of whiskey if necessary!! )

And to answer your question, Skip, I would listen to an Ortho Specialist in regards to elbows over OFA at this point as well. OFA really has not gotten their poop together regarding elbows. Which is why I don't understand ARC's MP elbow stance.

Since Diane brought up Cardiac, I do have a question for Diane regarding that...

Which would be considered "better" in your opinion? A heart tested via stethoscope by a Cardiac Specialist, or a heart tested via Dopplar by a PI at a Specialist Group? I ask this because, one, I want to be getting the best reading possible, and two, the cost difference is significant.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

Since Diane brought up Cardiac, I do have a question for Diane regarding that...

Which would be considered "better" in your opinion? A heart tested via stethoscope by a Cardiac Specialist, or a heart tested via Dopplar by a PI at a Specialist Group? I ask this because, one, I want to be getting the best reading possible, and two, the cost difference is significant.

BEST- Dopplar Echo by Board Certified Cardiologist making note of the dog's velocity as well as, of course, heart structure and performance. (velocities below 1.7 m/s are currently presumed clear of SAS and thus are the ideal/goal; 1.7-1.89m/s possible "silent affected" but will usually get a pass by the cardio vet, 1.9 -2.0 some cardios call this equivocal and some mild affected; above 2.0 and most call it affected some stay at equivocal until above 2.15 m/s)

BETTER- Auscultation by a board certified Cardiologist

Good- the above two performed by a Specialist

Crappy- auscultation or echo performed by practitioner with "cardiac leanings"

Garbage- auscultation or echo by a regular vet

Bill and Bea were auscultated by Board Certified Cardiologist. Annie is dopplar echo'd by Cardiologist last year (velocity 1.38 m/s) and her sister (who is not owned by me) was dopplar echo'd this past Sun (velocity 1.58 m/s) both echos done by Board Certified cardiologist

[poohbearsmom]

Thank you, friend.