Preferred brand of Parvo vaccine?

[makjamz]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

The problem is that the vaccine give at 5-6 weeks is worthless.
You could give the first vaccine at 8 weeks and send your new pups home at 9 weeks. This way you would know they are all vaccinated with their first shots.

Gina

Gina,
I would tend to disagree with the "worthless" comment. When you read the article there is more information to consider. Parvo is a dreadful illness than can be picked up anywhere/off anything the virus is shed on. Some areas are higher risk, some less. One way to prove it is worthless is to titre the dam, and pups at intervals after vaccinations.

My pups go to their homes at 8 weeks - provided they are healthy. As you know, this is when their key social bonding begins. These vaccines & schedule starting about 6 weeks worked for me, on my last 3 litters. As proven by their titres.

It is entirely your option to vaccinate per your interpretation of the publications.

cheers
Mary-Ann

[moondog]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

The problem is that the vaccine give at 5-6 weeks is worthless.

I have to take issue with this as well - it's only worthless if the pups have sufficient maternal antibodies to disable it.... For some puppies, it may be just what the doctor ordered!

Chili came to me at 8 weeks - granted she was hand delivered by her breeder - and received her first vaccination (ProGard DPv) a week later at 9 weeks. Took her to the vet for the next set (a 5 way) and then she was titered at 15 weeks. Had I not titered her, or had the results been marginal, she would have received a 3rd vaccination of DPv. As it was, her titers were so strong that there was no need for it, so her next vaccination was the one year booster.

[brunie's mom]

Maybe worthless was not the right thing...but a false sense of security?? If the mother's immunity overides the effectivness of the vaccine...then you have an 8 week old puppy that was given a vaccine at 6.5 weeks of age...and think it's got some immunity. The dam's immunity is wearing off at this age...and the vaccine immunity was deleted...so you really have a puppy at 8 weeks of age with no immunity....or very little.

The problem is that some pups hold on to their mother's immunity longer, and some shorter....and you can't tell unless you do a titer. Titers around here are $100. a draw....so most vets push vaccinating.

If the vaccine is not given in the proper intervals...then they do not create immunity properly. This is why some puppies develop parvo even though they have been vaccinated.

Gina

[brunie's mom]

I found this bit of an article about Puppy Immunity. Also Dr. Dodd recommends first vaccines for a puppy at 9-10 weeks not before....and that is what is being taught at all of the Veterinary Schools in the U.S.

Window of susceptibility

The age at which puppies and kittens can effectively be immunized is proportional to the amount of antibody protection the young animals received from their mother. High levels of maternal antibodies present in a puppy's or kitten's bloodstream will block the effectiveness of a vaccine. When the maternal antibodies drop to a low enough level in the puppy or kitten, immunity (protection from disease) can be produced through vaccination.

The antibodies from the mother generally circulate in the newborn's blood for a number of weeks. There is a period of time from several days to several weeks in which the maternal antibodies are too low to provide protection against the disease, but too high to allow a vaccine to work. This period is called the window of susceptibility. This is the time when despite being vaccinated, a puppy or kitten can still contract the disease.

The length and timing of the window of susceptibility is different in every litter, and even between individuals in a litter. A study of a cross section of different puppies showed that the age at which they were able to respond to a vaccine and develop protection (become immunized) covered a wide period of time. At six weeks of age, 25% of the puppies could be immunized. At 9 weeks, 40% of the puppies were able to respond to the vaccine and were protected. The number increased to 60% by 16 weeks, and by 18 weeks, 95% of the puppies could be immunized.

As you can see, it is really impossible for us to determine, when in the presence of passive immunity, an individual puppy or kitten should be vaccinated. There are just too many variables. Even if we did blood tests on them, each animal in the litter would probably have a different titer. Some will have absorbed more antibodies, the antibodies may have broken down more quickly in others, or some may have used a portion of their antibodies if they encountered harmful bacteria or viruses. Additionally, a young animal may have a protective titer (level of antibodies) for one disease, but not enough for another.

Progress is being made. Some of the newer vaccines can stimulate active immunity in the young animal even when maternal antibodies are present. These are called 'high titer, low passage vaccines.' These modified live vaccines contain a higher number of virus particles (high titer) which are less attenuated (low passage) than the 'average' vaccine. High titer, low passage vaccines can generally elicit an immune system response in young animals who have a maternal antibody level that would prevent them from responding to an 'average' vaccine. A common way to describe this is "the vaccine 'breaks through' the maternal antibody." This vaccine technology is used most often with parvovirus. As vaccines improve, we will hopefully be better able to protect puppies and kittens throughout their early life.


References and Further Reading


Al-Sarraf, R. Update on feline vaccine-associated fibrosarcomas. Veterinary Medicine. 1998;729-35.

American Association of Feline Practitioners/Academy of Feline Medicine. Recommendations for Feline Leukemia Virus Testing. The Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian. 1997;1105-7.

Bell, FW. Recommendations for FeLV- and FIV-positive cats with cancer. In August, JR (ed.) Consultations in Feline Internal Medicine. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1997;572-8.

Bergman, PJ; Couto, CG; Hendrick, MJ; Macy, DW; Richards, JR; Starr, RM (contributors). Vaccine-associated feline sarcoma symposium. Sponsored by the Vaccine-Associated Feline Sarcoma Task Force and the Arm & Hammer Division of Church & Swight Co., Inc. July 25, 1998.

Brakeman, L (ed.) Researchers suspect genetic cause for vaccine site sarcomas. dvm 1998; July 1, 41-45.

Cole, R. Rethinking canine vaccinations. Veterinary Forum; 1998; Jan;52-7.

Greene, CE. Immunoprophylaxis and immunotherapy. In Greene, CE (ed.) Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1998;717-750.

Jarrett, O. Development of vaccines against feline leukemia virus. In Kirk, RW; Bonagura, JD (eds.) Current Veterinary Therapy XI. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1992;457-60.

Pfizer Animal Health. Duration of immunity in companion animals after natural infection and vaccination. Pfizer Animal Health; June 30, 1998.

Roitt, I; Brostoff, J; Male, D. Immunology. CV Mosby Company. St. Louis, MO; 1985.

Rosen, DK. Feline infectious diseases and rational vaccine protocols for immunization. Presented at the Wisconsin Veterinary Medical Association Convention. October 10, 1998.

Schultz, RD. Current and future canine and feline vaccination programs. Veterinary Medicine. 1998;233-253.

Tizard, I; Yawei, N. Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. 1998;213;54-60.

Veterinary Learning Systems. Recombinant vaccine technology. Supplement to The Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian. 1997;19(2).

Veterinary Learning Systems. Vaccine technology in the 21st century. Supplement to The Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian. 1998;20(8c).

Gina

[paiton]

fort dodge is the one that my vet used on my puppy

[ahhhbe]

Originally Posted by paiton

fort dodge is the one that my vet used on my puppy

thats the one mine had too....mine ended up w parvo....did yours?

[makjamz]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Maybe worthless was not the right thing...but a false sense of security?? If the mother's immunity overides the effectivness of the vaccine...then you have an 8 week old puppy that was given a vaccine at 6.5 weeks of age...and think it's got some immunity. The dam's immunity is wearing off at this age...and the vaccine immunity was deleted...so you really have a puppy at 8 weeks of age with no immunity....or very little.

The problem is that some pups hold on to their mother's immunity longer, and some shorter....and you can't tell unless you do a titer. Titers around here are $100. a draw....so most vets push vaccinating.

If the vaccine is not given in the proper intervals...then they do not create immunity properly. This is why some puppies develop parvo even though they have been vaccinated.

Gina

If you read my posts correctly - you would comprehend my pups go out w/2 shots - #1 the Progard CPV, #2 the Progard 5. Your assertions of my 8 week pups having little or no immunity are grossly inaccurate & rude. I do not follow the the logic with pushing excess or early vaccinations. Titres are the way I go. The expense does not factor in when considering the potential implications of over vaccinating.

One has to consider many different criteria & situations, not just singular sources. This subject matter is under constant review.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by makjamz

If you read my posts correctly - you would comprehend my pups go out w/2 shots - #1 the Progard CPV, #2 the Progard 5. Your assertions of my 8 week pups having little or no immunity are grossly inaccurate & rude. I do not follow the the logic with pushing excess or early vaccinations. Titres are the way I go. The expense does not factor in when considering the potential implications of over vaccinating.

One has to consider many different criteria & situations, not just singular sources. This subject matter is under constant review.

Not sure where I was rude??? I was not even talking about your puppy....just talking generally.
These are the facts...does not matter how many vaccines you give your pups...if they are not given at the right time they may not be effective.

I agree about titers....but most people titer after the whole series of puppy vaccines are done...and by that time they should have immunity.
It's the 'window of susceptibility' that is so scary.

Gina

[Teresa]

Hmmm, interesting thoughts. I've read all the research on how and why the protocol has been changed. Mine get a CPV/MLV at around 6-6.5 weeks...that is about 20% likely to get interference in terms of maternal antibodies. I then wait until about 9-10 to do a progard-5, and any that didn't get enough response from the first shot are 90%+ likely to be covered by the second. The third shot at 3-4 weeks later (12 to 14 weeks) I consider good enough for them to really go out and about. I don't shelter them completely, but advise owners to not take them to certain places (those where unvaxed dogs might be) until the 3rd shot (doggy parks, shelters, kennels, petsmart, etc.) I don't worry as much about family, friends, or doggy groups - most of us have healthy dogs.

Mine usually leave home anywhere from 8 to 12 weeks. I am content with 8, and have let a few leave a bit early for special circumstances. This is my ninth litter (3rd generation)...although 3 of those were 1-3 puppies. So far never a parvo case. Just don't like all the talk I have been hearing of parvo this year.

Hoping to arrange a herding test with ducks around 8 weeks...

[paiton]

no mine did not get parvo from being vaccinated by fort dodge

[Teresa]

The point I was making (and wanted opinions on), is brand of vaccine. The high titre parvo vaccines are fairly effective at 6 weeks (there is enough deactivated virus to get past any remaining maternal antibodies). Everyone I talk to likes the ProGard hands down...but I either wait until tomorrow and do the 5-way myself (and I don't want to include the other 4 at this age), or accept a Vanguard DPV/MLV today and use the Progard 5 way shots at 9, 12, and 16 (send them home with the puppies). They were six weeks on Friday, and there is definitely a higher risk between now and 8 weeks due to the natural fading of the maternal antibodies.

From what I've researched, the Vanguard isn't one of the worst, but is not as effective as ProGard. Sigh - I can make more phone calls, or order 25 of the progard CPV doses overnight and throw the rest away...I have the 5 ways for week 9.