Any hope? Hemangiosarcoma

[Karinka200]

Good day all.....

Holly, my 10 year old lab, adopted from the shelter not even 7 months ago, has been diagnosed with hemangiosarcom. In an emergency surgery, she had her spleen removed (a tumor had burst and blood filled her belly). While under, she went into "bloat", and subsequently also had several mammory tumors removed.

She is home now...eating well.... wanting to play...with protein levels and pbc stablized.

The vets estimate a couple of weeks to a couple of months. Expectancy can be possibly extended to 6 months with chemo....done every 3 weeks for 3-4 times. No one has been very optimistic.

As a result of research done and contact with Dr. Gloria Dodd ( Nationally known holistic vet and author, with traditional background in vet care. ....I have consulted with her before for other pets...) have resulted in only two instances where life was extended beyond the 6 months. One was a shepherd mix diagnosed at 2 years...who lived to 6 and 1/2 with holistic treatment...and Dr. Dodd's own dog....who gained 3 years using holistic treatment only.

Has any one had any experience with this? What can we expect if we decide on chemo?

What are your thoughts on this? I am still in shock that I just can't seem to decide what to do. Should we just keep her comfortable and go on a day by day basis....do we do chemo? holistic? combination? She has been through so much already.....(she was severely underweight, unspayed, in rough shape when we adopted her...she was a stray.) But she has been the sweetest, bravest, trooper through it all.

Any opinions would be appreciated,
Thank you,
Karinka

[Jaan]

I'm so sorry to hear of what Holly has been going through. What irony---she finally gets the great home she deserves and then this has to happen. My first Rottie, Arwen Evenstar, was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma in July and underwent a major operation. We lost her in October to bloat, though the vet said that the cancer would have shortly gotten her anyway. I'm afraid that hemangiosarcoma is one of the worst of the many types of cancer and Holly's chances are rather bleak. I would just make her as comfortable as possible and not put her through the rigors of chemo. However, this is a choice that you alone can make and it's one of the tougher ones.

We recently put our male Rottie through 26 weeks of chemo for lymphoma and yes, he did greatly improve for a while. Then, after the second to last treatment, he went down hill almost overnight and we had to say goodbye. We gained an extra 6 months with him but he hated the treatments and I was upset with myself for putting him through it. I would never do it again. This was my experience but maybe there are others out there that can give you more hope. God bless you for everything you're doing for your girl. What a shame that you couldn't have had the whole ten years together.

[brunie's mom]

I am so sorry you are going through this with your dog.
At this advanced age...I would not put her through anything. Keep her comfy and eating and let her go when it's time.

I think vet's are very quick to offer all sorts of treatments (because that's what they are trained to do)....but in the end the dog is no better, you are out thousands of dollars and the dog dies.

I would NEVER put any of my dogs through chemo....I would not want them to be suffering.
Love them, spoil them and enjoy what little time they have left.

Gina

[Sam's Mom]

How sad when your girl finally finds her forever home for this to happen. When the
treatment cannot cure only prolong...I think it is important to look at quality of life. I personally would treasure your time left together keeping her painfree and comfortable as long as possible. When it is time your Brave Sweet Holly will let you know...look in her eyes.
I know this is an unbelievably tuff decision my prayers along with big paw hugs are with you both.

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I would NEVER put any of my dogs through chemo....I would not want them to be suffering.

I do not know what kind of chemo, ie if it is any different the the chemo used for lymphoma. I will say that most dogs tolerate chemo very well. The protocols used for dogs and those used for people are very different. Just because most people do not tolerate chemo and suffer through many terrible side effects, does not mean that those same things happen with dogs.
Unless you have direct experience with dogs suffering due to chemo, it is not wise to add your comments to someone that is looking for accurate information.
I do not have information on this type of cancer. I only have information on what we did with my Misty when she lived with lymphoma for 20 months. She was on chemo for much of that time. In 20 months she only had about 5 bad days and they were seperate days. I think if you were able to ask Misty what she thought about her chemo treatments, she would say that she had a great time. She had the vet staff wrapped around her paw and had a person constantly petting her for hours at a time.
I had many people tell me to not do chemo, to not treat her and to just put her down. For my dog at that time, that was not the right choice. For every owner and for every dog, it is a personal decision on what is the right choice. Just remember is that what ever you choose to do, that is the right decision.
I have a 10 year old male with cancer in his prostate. He was dx with Transistional Cell Carcinoma 10 days ago. He is on medication that is working to shrink the tumor(s) so that he can pee. For a full week before dx he could not pee without a catheter. I did everything I could to keep my dog alive until we knew what we were dealing with. This type of cancer sometimes reponds to an inexpensive anti-inflamitory. Until we knew what kind of cancer, no treatment could be offered. Fortunately the piroxicam worked to the point that he can pee on his own.
Before we knew what the dx was, it was assumed that he had prostate cancer, which does not have a good prognosis. It was suggested by the emergancy vet that instead of catheterize his bladder daily, to just euthanize him. I was very close to being being offended by that suggestion. But I did know that we might be euthanizing our dog in a matter of days.
This Tuesday we have an appointment with an oncologist to find out exactly what our options are. I know that some of those options are not going to be right for us or our dog. But since the piroxicam is working, odds are he has a number of good months left.
I suggest that you get accurate information. I have found that the Caninecancer list on yahoo groups to be very helpful in finding out just what is involved in the different options by people who have actually had experience in this type of cancer.
My thoughts are with you. It is never easy dealing with a beloved pet that is sick.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I do not know what kind of chemo, ie if it is any different the the chemo used for lymphoma. I will say that most dogs tolerate chemo very well. The protocols used for dogs and those used for people are very different. Just because most people do not tolerate chemo and suffer through many terrible side effects, does not mean that those same things happen with dogs.
Unless you have direct experience with dogs suffering due to chemo, it is not wise to add your comments to someone that is looking for accurate information.
I do not have information on this type of cancer. I only have information on what we did with my Misty when she lived with lymphoma for 20 months. She was on chemo for much of that time. In 20 months she only had about 5 bad days and they were seperate days. I think if you were able to ask Misty what she thought about her chemo treatments, she would say that she had a great time. She had the vet staff wrapped around her paw and had a person constantly petting her for hours at a time.
I had many people tell me to not do chemo, to not treat her and to just put her down. For my dog at that time, that was not the right choice. For every owner and for every dog, it is a personal decision on what is the right choice. .

Working as an AHT for many years...I've seen many dogs go through chemo..some get through it without too many side effects...and some do not. It is poison that is being put throught the system. I've seen families go into debt for thousands of dollars...because the vet said there may be hope.

The OP dog has one of the most aggressive types of cancers...chemo will give the dog at most a few months. The dog will die.

I gave my opinion of what I would do...and I would never put an older dog through chemo. The end is the same. I am not selfish, and will not try to keep my dogs with me hell or highwater.

I understand how you feel, and they are your dogs and you can give them any treatment you want.

I also do not believe in false hope.

Gina

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Working as an AHT for many years...I've seen many dogs go through chemo..some get through it without too many side effects...and some do not. It is poison that is being put throught the system. I've seen families go into debt for thousands of dollars...because the vet said there may be hope.

The OP dog has one of the most aggressive types of cancers...chemo will give the dog at most a few months. The dog will die.

I gave my opinion of what I would do...and I would never put an older dog through chemo. The end is the same. I am not selfish, and will not try to keep my dogs with me hell or highwater.

I understand how you feel, and they are your dogs and you can give them any treatment you want.

I also do not believe in false hope.

Gina

Gina,
What you posted above and what you posted earlier have two different meanings. I wish that you posted the above first. Your earlier post made it seem like chemo causes dogs to suffer.
The decision to treat and how to treat a dog with a terrible disease is a personal decision. It should be made with as much accurate, truthful information as possible. The OP is going through a difficult time right now.
Some forms of cancer are good candiates for chemo. Lymphoma is one of those that reponds well to chemo. Prostate cancer does not respond well to chemo and other non-invasive treatments. In my case, I would not have opted for chemo if my dog actually had prostate cancer. Fortunately he does not and he is still enjoying life at my feet. I feel like we dodged a bullet just a couple of weeks ago.
I do not know if Hemangiosarcoma responds well to chemo or any treatments for that matter. A good friend's dog was recently put down for this cancer. Unfortunately it was not dx until it was very advanced.

[2rotties2luv]

Two of my three rotties had hemangiosarcomas. This is an aggressive cancer and often is not diagnosed until it is in an advanced stage because the first symptoms are often caused when a tumor begins to hemorrhage.

With both rotties, I was offered the options of surgery and chemo. With the first dog, I went home and did some internet research. After reading up on hemangiosarcoma, I had my rottie euthanized 4 days after the diagnosis. With the second rottie, she was euthanized within hours of the diagnosis. Both had tumors that were hemorrhaging.

My rotties were my loyal companions and best friends. It seemed like the least I could do was to humanely euthanize them and not to prolong their illness and discomfort. One has to do a lot of soul searching to determine whether the treatments offered are really benifiting the quality of life of the dog or are being done to prolong the dog's life because it's too hard to say goodbye.

[Karinka200]

Good day,

Thanks for your replies, concern, and support. It's been a long week.

Holly got her stiches out on Monday. She had some edema and her red blood cell count went down 2 percent. But, they weren't concerned. She goes back today to have the blood panel done again.

Outwardly, she is doing great. Her appetite is excellent...she sooooo wants to run and play. But, so far we have kept activities confined to indoor play. She LOVES her "hide a bee". She is getting antsy though and just seems to want to get on with life. Interestingly though, she has become so much more "attached/bonded/" to me. I'm not sure how to describe it...but at night, particularly....she needs to sleep right by my bed. The dog bed needs to be right up against the bed....not by the dresser like it used to be. If not, she will just stare at me. Prior to all this, she was more comfortable on the couch or overstuffed chair in the dining room...downstairs.....

I am doing a lot of holistic things right now (including the essaic tea....which really perked her up the day I started her on it.) We are not pursuing chemo at this point. Her veins are so "overused" from her surgeries that they are having a hard time just drawing blood, and until the tea, I felt she was too weak to go through it.

Thanks again everyone...I'll keep you posted.....

Karinka

[hennie400]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I I only have information on what we did with my Misty when she lived with lymphoma for 20 months. She was on chemo for much of that time. In 20 months she only had about 5 bad days and they were seperate days. I think if you were able to ask Misty what she thought about her chemo treatments, she would say that she had a great time. She had the vet staff wrapped around her paw and had a person constantly petting her for hours at a time.
.

Just a comment to this. One of our top agility dogs has lymphoma and is currently undergoing chemo. She has been able to keep competeing at a high level and is loving it. She is active and loving life and is currently in remission.

I am sorry to hear about Holly and good luck with her. I am so glad she is in a loving home and is receiving the love and care that all dogs deserve particularly in her time of great need.

[TashaT]

It is a very tough decision to make. My Tasha has had 4 treatments so far and she has 2 left. It hasn't been horrible but she does occasionally get sick. It is usually right after a treatment. My reasons for putting her through it was because her chances are really good. It had not gone into her bones or organs. When they told me she had cancer if it would have only helped her for a short time I wouldn't have gone through with it. I know there are no guarantees but I decided to give her a shot. She has undifferentiated sarcoma. Whatever you decide keep us posted. I hope you have some good quality time together.

[fbkeays]

I am so glad that your girl seems to be doing well. Wanting to eat is the best sign there is. I am wishing you the best and your girl a good life.

[SherryB]

Ah Karinka, my prayers to you and Holly. My beautiful Wolfie a pound puppy shepherd mix was diagnosed with this six years ago and I had to have him put to sleep within weeks. I tried blood transfusions but that was just a temporary fix. I was never offered a spleenectomy. I just know that my boy let me know it was time and for that I'm glad.
Sherry - in tears just remembering my friend.

[Paul Howey]

Dear Karinka,

There is always hope, I believe. Our pet therapy dog Freckles has had three operations to remove hemangiosarcomas from her tummy. Each time, the surgeon has been able to get "clean lines" (to quote him), and she is with us and the children she serves three years later.

Each case, of course, is different. I hope yours has an outcome as wonderful as the one Freckles has enjoyed. (Freckles).

peace,
paul howey

[jlaack]

I am doing a lot of holistic things right now (including the essaic tea....which really perked her up the day I started her on it.) We are not pursuing chemo at this point. Her veins are so "overused" from her surgeries that they are having a hard time just drawing blood, and until the tea, I felt she was too weak to go through it.

Our eldest dog is on a variation of the essaic tea-but basically the same concept and similar ingredients. We also give him a product by Thorne Research called Immugen which works to boost the immune system. Have you discussed the best diet with the holistic vet? Our dog has bone cancer and a moderate fat, protein, very low carbohydrate diet was recommended. We treated him conventionally (chemo and surgeries) and holistically (herbal supplements, massages, accupuncture, diet, etc.) and he will be 3 years out in December. If he makes it to that point he will statiscally be one in 20 percent of all dogs.... I understand about the veins being problematic. For our dog the chemo was more positive than negative b/c he got to go to the hospital and be with his friends! He never got sick but we did reschedule several appointments simply b/c his pre treatment bloodwork wasn't as strong as it could be. Anyhow on his last surgery they had to put the IV in his ear. Now drawing blood for anything takes a good 15 minutes to get a vein...

In short I think the decision to treat or not has to be yours and yours alone. I know many, many posters on this site say not to and they wouldn't ever. I completely understand and respect their opinions. In my experience with just my one dog we have given him quantity and quality of life and I don't regret any of the decisions we have made. I also believe in the importance of treating when the odds are most favorable. It is important for some dogs to be treated in order for ALL dogs to benefit. How are the veterinarians and drug companies going to be able to improve upon procedures and treatments if no one treats there dog?? I really in my heart of hearts DO NOT believe this...

I think vet's are very quick to offer all sorts of treatments (because that's what they are trained to do)....but in the end the dog is no better, you are out thousands of dollars and the dog dies.

Harley (my senior) has seen 5 oncologists and about 15 oncology residents. Everyone had put his needs at the forefront of their recommendations, comments and suggestions we still speak with his primary surgeon very frequently even though we are no longer 'clients'.