osteosarcoma

[nic]

A very sweet 8 year old rottie who I adopted about a year ago has just been diagnosed with os of a hind limb. Amputation and chemo are out of the question as she has fairly advanced osteoarthritis of both hind limbs, is overweight (although I've got her weight down a lot) and would not be ok on 3 legs. At the moment she's just managing to get around and appears to have some quality of life - she's reactive to her environment and eating well. She's on inti-inflammatories for the pain.
What is the general pattern for this disease? What kind of pain does it produce? I know she will have to be put down - when is this generally done - ie what indicators does the dog give? I have no experience with this at all and want to give her quality of life rather than quantity.
How often do pathological fractures occur? Any advice would be appreciated.
thanks. Nic.

[katheyt]

I'm not a vet but I have a dog with cancer. My vet told me that I will know when it is time to put my dog down. He said there are several things to consider. 1) Pet's quality of life- does it eat, sleep, drink and seem to feel OK 2) your quality of life - is your pet becoming a burden to you and you are starting to resent it. My dog was given 30 days to live in October and she's in my back yard watching my other dogs play right now. She's not ready yet. It's hard to accept that your four legged child is dying but, with time I've come to terms with it. My prayers are with you.

[nic]

Kathy -thanks for the kind thoughts. I never imagined I would come to love a dog so much. I went back to my local vet today (the diagnosis was made at a specialist centre) and she said that the progression will be very rapid now. When the cancer can actually be felt, as it can in Artie's case, it grows very fast and it may only be a matter of days or a week or two and that she almost certainly has the cancer in her lungs. she also said that dogs who are in quite a lot of pain may still eat well as it's such a basic drive, so I shouldn't use that as a guide. She said that dogs often only go off their food when they are feeling vomity.
I guess we both have to trust them to tell us when it's time. Nic.


[Note: This message has been edited by Cosmo]

[Maggie]

Hi Nic,Well Im going to give you a point of veiw from a human who has cancer. I had cancer for a long time and didnt no it. Except for being extremely tired and generally having no immune system, I didnt have any pain until it got really bad. I think that if you have a good quality of life and secondary cancer dosent set in then let your girl live as long as she is not suffering,you will see the change in her eyes when she has had enough. I quess one of the big things I have learnt is that if you understand the disease abit more then it becomes less scarry. I talk about my cancer as it healthy for me to do this. I would enjoy your girl and let her do all the things she loves to do,she will let you no when she has had enough,keep her on a excellent natural diet,with things like flaxseed oil and maybe you could try some shark cartilige tablets as they are great for bone cancer. I hope I havent scared any replies away with this post, I just beleive thats it heathly to talk about it,rather than be in denial, Good luck for you and your girl.

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Maggie Murray
Rottweiler Specialist Judge
New Zealand

[nic]

Thanks Maggie. Through my work I care for a lot of people with cancer, so I'm familiar with how humans respond - I guess I just wondered if dogs were different - people usually tell you when they have pain, but I wasn't sure what indicators a dog will give. I was also worried that as she's such a 'trier' she will go on doing things when she really shouldn't, and that I would mis-read the signs.
I'm so glad that I took a friend's advice to wait a couple of days and didn't do the knee-jerk reaction thing and have her put down immediately. Ironically, she's getting a bit better each day with the anti-inflammatories. I suspect that she had chronic pain from her arthritis, and that the anti-inflammatories she's having for the bone cancer pain are also working on the arthritis. Yesterday the was up on all four legs and rough-housing with my other dog, whereas before she was limping very gingerly on three legs. Life's a funny thing!
Thanks for replying, and good luck with your own battle. I agree that it's very healthy to talk about it, and people don't do that enough. I'll send some white light your way. Nic.

[Nancy Estes]

Nic - my experience (lymphosarcoma) with dogs with cancer on pred is that they do great for awhile, good appetite, etc., plus the usual side effects - thirst, urination, etc. However, they go down very, very fast. At the first signs of loss of appetite or discomfort, again my experience, you have only hours before they are in severe distress. With two of my dogs it was a matter of 6-8 hours in one case and 12 hours in another.

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo@hotbot.com

[nic]

Kathey - thanks for the encouraging thoughts.

Nancy - yes, the vet warned me that osteosarcoma, once palpaple, grows exponentially. She was very clear about this being a matter of a couple of weeks at best. She may have the interaction skills of a plank of wood but I always know exactly what is happening!
I already have the phone number of the vet who will come to the house to put her down (mine won't do it at the house) on the fridge, so I can act quickly when I have to.
Nic.

[Nancy Estes]

Nic - I'm glad your vet has been so up front with you. It's been years in my case but I still regret having waited too long with my first Rottweiler. She was in extreme pain and distress by the time I called the vet to put her down. I now know that the first signs of loss of appetite or anything else *off* is the signal that you have very little time left. Of course, one possible option if you can't get the vet right away would be to give an *extra* dose of prednisone & hope it kicks in enough to ease the symptoms until the vet can get there. But this is something I would check with your vet ahead of time as this is only an opinion on my part.

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo@hotbot.com

[nic]

Thanks, Nancy. She's not on prednisolone - she's on indomethicin, which would react even more quickly to kill the pain. Incidentally, with bone pain in people, it's drugs like this (brand name Indocid) which give the best pain relief. Prednisolone is not half as effective. I've already arranged with the vet that he will come very quickly, but I'm not going to wait till the last minute in case what you describe happens. Artie's still lookin' bright eyed, waggy tailed and eager to play.
Nic.

[katheyt]

I don't want to depress anyone but I'm in the same boat as Nic. Is there some sort of heavy duty pain pill that can be prescribed ahead of time just in case you can't get to a vet right away ?

[nic]

Kathey - I asked the vet about strong analgesia, and she said that there's not much around. She said aspirin can be used but she didn't give me a doggy dose. A friend of mine had a dog who had a painful procedure done, and the dog was put on a short course of capadex (also known as paradex and digesic in Australia). If you have any of this lying around the house it might be worth a thought. I guess if it's so bad that you're calling the vet out to do the deed, you really don't have to worry about safe dosages. I think my friend was told to give half to one cap, so for a final pain relief dose I'd be thinking about two to three. My lollopylegs has gone to stay with my ex (whose dog she originally was) for a final visit this weekend - the house is mighty quiet.
Nic.

[nic]

I went to the Animal Welfare League yesterday and there was an absolutely gorgeous Rottie bitch there, 3 years old (stray). I didn't realise that Artie was so oversized till I saw all the other Rotties - she towers over them!
However...when I explained the situation to the people there, they fairly agressively talked me out of getting another dog til Artie is gone. They implied that Rotties are very prone to stressing out and that all I'll do is make Artie miserable, especially if the new dog bumps her leg and causes pain. I guess if she had a slow illness and was likely to be around for months I would ignore them, but I can see the sense in this. I went through the 'no I'm never having another rottie because they have so many inbred problems' stage and have thankfully survived and will definately rescue another Rottie. Nic.


[Note: This message has been edited by Cosmo]

[katheyt]

You're right. An older dog would be a major stress factor. I brought home a puppy which was no threat to her status. Maybe they will hold the dof for you.