Nina's throwing protein... again

[Ninasmom]

Well, venison has just gone out the window in a bad way. The PLE snuck up on me this time - no prior itchiness, nothing... and now she's got uncontrollable diarrhea. It started early last week - she began pooping in the house. My husband blamed himself - with all of the rain here, he hadn't been taking her on her evening walks. By Friday, we had some diarrhea. Again, husband blamed himself - he gave her 1/4 can of Rogan's wet food. 1 immodium and it was 'gone'. 24 hour fast, transfer to rice/oatmeal and chickenbroth and we started to see some positives. As soon as we tried to transition her back to the venison we had uncontrollable diarrhea. Not to be graphic but the smell of PLE is unmistakable.

Back to the vet - we have put her back on metronidozle and low dose pred. We're giving it 10 days to get her stabilized. If we can't, well... I don't even want to think about it yet, but I will do the right thing. If I can't stabilize her then she will be suffering, and she deserves much better than that.

She's back on a 24 hour fast. The problem is that I don't know what to feed her. She has been on every prescription diet out there. Just about every food on the market has been in (and out) of her system. Venison was one of the last few proteins we had. Now - maybe duck (but I think she reacted to that early on in one of the prescriptions) and maybe white fish. I'm willing to try anything so all suggestions are welcome.

[Rubyhead]

What's PLE?
Excuse that I did not do a search, sorry.

[hokisteph5]

Originally Posted by Rubyhead

What's PLE?
Excuse that I did not do a search, sorry.

I searched the forums, but didn't find anything. I did a google search and came up with this link.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Ninasmom

Well, venison has just gone out the window in a bad way. The PLE snuck up on me this time - no prior itchiness, nothing... and now she's got uncontrollable diarrhea. It started early last week - she began pooping in the house. My husband blamed himself - with all of the rain here, he hadn't been taking her on her evening walks. By Friday, we had some diarrhea. Again, husband blamed himself - he gave her 1/4 can of Rogan's wet food. 1 immodium and it was 'gone'. 24 hour fast, transfer to rice/oatmeal and chickenbroth and we started to see some positives. As soon as we tried to transition her back to the venison we had uncontrollable diarrhea. Not to be graphic but the smell of PLE is unmistakable.

Back to the vet - we have put her back on metronidozle and low dose pred. We're giving it 10 days to get her stabilized. If we can't, well... I don't even want to think about it yet, but I will do the right thing. If I can't stabilize her then she will be suffering, and she deserves much better than that.

She's back on a 24 hour fast. The problem is that I don't know what to feed her. She has been on every prescription diet out there. Just about every food on the market has been in (and out) of her system. Venison was one of the last few proteins we had. Now - maybe duck (but I think she reacted to that early on in one of the prescriptions) and maybe white fish. I'm willing to try anything so all suggestions are welcome.

There is a duck and potato food made by Dick Van patten's company that I've heard is very good for fussy systems.

[Ninasmom]

Originally Posted by hokisteph5

I searched the forums, but didn't find anything. I did a google search and came up with this link.

Yes, that is it. Essentially, her body cannot process certain types of proteins. The complication is that, even though at one point she may have been able to process a protein (ie: venison), her body builds up a toxic reaction to it in her system. Once that happens, it's kind of like someone who has an allergy to bee stings. One sting - reaction, two - worse; three- worse, and so on.

[groupieindenial]

Have you tried spirulina as a supplement for her protein? Its high quality, highly digestable protein, but unlike plant protein NO CELLULAR WALLS, even though its a blue-green algae. You'd have to go to a home prepared diet again, and use ingredients that work, and just mix this stuff in. Youd have to supplement the rest of her nutrient requirements, so there will be a bit of research, calculating and planning. I'm sure you can find high quality spirulina for a decent price if you buy in quantity (generally its pretty expensive).

[moondog]

Michele, having dealt with Luna's PLE for so long, I know how hard it is...and I'm actually amazed that Nina has done as well as she has on commercial foods. Luna could not tolerate any of them.

Before you throw in the towel, are you willing to home-cook for Nina? In my experience, that is the only way to go with severe intestinal diseases such as PLE.

I tried to do a search on your earlier posts when Nina first became ill, but I can't find them. Have you only fed commercial diets? The problem with a commercial diet is you cannot isolate the trigger, and can't remove it even if you could. It is not always the protein source that is the problem, there are many additives in a commercial diet that can trigger an upset. The ONLY way to control the diet, and have the ability to isolate the trigger, is to prepare it yourself. The simpler the diet, the better the chances for success.

Do you know if Nina has true allergies, or could these be simply sensitivities instead? Inflammation in the intestional tract can behave just like an allergy, even if a true allergy isn't present. I discovered that with Luna, once her system healed enough. Foods I could not give her early on when she was in crisis (chicken and rice), she had no problem with (in moderation) once she had been on her tofu/nonfat cottage cheese/tapioca diet long enough for some healing to occur (months). It is ALWAYS a very fine line to walk when you have a dog with PLE.

Have you ever tried tofu for Nina? I have thankfully been able to help quite a few people whose dogs have PLE and every one that was fed tofu as a primary source of protein did amazingly well with it. Luna's own diet was primarily tofu, nonfat cottage cheese, and white rice. For a dog in crisis, tapioca is a very good carb source (non-reactive and very easily processed by the dog) to help get them through it, and I used that for Luna when she was very sick with great results, and then was able to introduce rice again later.

About the uncontrollable diarrhea.....I found that immodium was far too harsh for Luna. Her holistic vet gave me a Chinese herbal medication called "The Curing Pill", and that worked MUCH better for her and was far kinder on her system. If you google it, you can find places to purchase it online. A Chinese pharmacy would also have it.

[Ninasmom]

Hi Moondog. Your posts are invaluable to me so thank you for responding. Nina was diagnosed at 18 months. She's definitely allergic - we've got the tests to prove it. Her numbers were scary - I can't remember them exactly, I'm going to try and get a new copy from the vet this afternoon.

She's 8 years, 4 months now, so the initial diagnosis would not be in here. It's just something we've lived with for so long and thought we had successfully managed - the initial shock is overwhelming. She's too amazing of a creature to simply give up on. Just thinking about it sinks my heart and it isn't something my husband will even consider.

We are going to try home cooking for her as a permanent solution at this point. My husband spent hours on line researching different diets - we're done with kibble forever with her. Our biggest concern is making sure that all of her nutritional needs are met. I would hate for us to get this back under control only to discover that we've messed her vitamin intake up.

That fine line thing is so true!! Nina's 'comeback food' has always been white rice, hardboiled egg and chicken broth. But we never know what will throw the scale. It could be something today that she didn't react to yesterday.

1 immodium binds her up for 48 hours, so that's my window. I know she was uncomfortable yesterday, I could see it in her eyes. But this morning she was playful and ate her breakfast with enthusiasm. She's living in the master bathroom today (where she spent yesterday as well), but Rogan can still see her, talk to her and nuzzle her and Dasher hangs out with her so she's still getting her love.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Ninasmom

Hi Moondog. Your posts are invaluable to me so thank you for responding. Nina was diagnosed at 18 months. She's definitely allergic - we've got the tests to prove it. Her numbers were scary - I can't remember them exactly, I'm going to try and get a new copy from the vet this afternoon.

Along with her serum proteins, I'm also interested in what her eosinophils came back as.

Originally Posted by Ninasmom

She's 8 years, 4 months now, so the initial diagnosis would not be in here. It's just something we've lived with for so long and thought we had successfully managed - the initial shock is overwhelming. She's too amazing of a creature to simply give up on. Just thinking about it sinks my heart and it isn't something my husband will even consider.

Fortunately, most intestinal diseases CAN be managed quite well through diet and medications, BUT.....your husband does need to realize that we never know ahead of time when a dog will have reached a point of no return and enter into an irreversible state that they cannot bounce back from, and this is something we DO have to consider....for the dog's sake. PLE is a roller coaster, that's for sure - and once we learn the nuances with respect to our individual dog, we can certaily smooth out the ride - but there IS always the possibility that THIS crisis is THE crisis, and we need to prepare ourselves ahead of time for that eventuality so if it does happen, we can truly put the dog and their suffering ahead of our own wish for this not to be happening. Sorry to ramble on that, but it's really important. You know Nina, and you know what is "normal" for her, how long it takes to bounce back, etc. - that's your guide. I think the thing that shocked me most when I lost Luna was that she didn't succumb to PLE or a complication of PLE...I was always looking for those signs, and she succumbed to something completely unrelated.

Originally Posted by Ninasmom

We are going to try home cooking for her as a permanent solution at this point. My husband spent hours on line researching different diets - we're done with kibble forever with her. Our biggest concern is making sure that all of her nutritional needs are met. I would hate for us to get this back under control only to discover that we've messed her vitamin intake up.

It's REALLY important to FIRST find foods she can tolerate - one protein source, one carb source.....and THEN build a balanced diet around them OVER TIME. In Luna's case I used two protein sources - tofu and nonfat cottage cheese (one vegetable protein, one animal protein). Do NOT expect to be able to feed her a nutritionally complete diet from the get go - the diet is a work in progress and you first need to begin with a foundation. The only supplement that is needed from the start is calcium. All other vitamin/mineral supplements can and SHOULD be introduced later, after the foundation diet has allowed the intestinal system to rest and heal. Waiting to balance completely will not harm her - dogs can be nutrient deficient for several months without signs of deficiency, and if a tolerable foundation is not established because of concerns for complete nutrition, you have bupkis. A dog that can't heal, can't utilize those nutrients, so HEALING is PRIMARY and complete nutrition follows.

I will whisper in your ear again......"tofu"......I resisted the idea for 8 months when it was first suggested to me, because "dogs eat meat". Well, one of the things I discovered is that, with a severe intestinal inflammation, sometimes dogs can't process meat! That certainly was the case for Luna and I didn't discover it until I turned to tofu as a last resort. Well, she thrived on that diet and after a couple months, I was able to add meat other than baby food - she just needed to heal first......"tofu".....

Be careful with this disease and online diets. If you do not have a copy of "Dog and Cat Diets - the Healthful Alternative" by Dr Donald Strombeck, I REALLY recommend that you get one (amazon has it). This was my bible for Luna - for the info contained, for the methods recommended, and for the diet recommendations. I wouldn't use any other source for something as severe as this, and I am happy to help you work out a diet if you'd like my help.

Originally Posted by Ninasmom

That fine line thing is so true!! Nina's 'comeback food' has always been white rice, hardboiled egg and chicken broth. But we never know what will throw the scale. It could be something today that she didn't react to yesterday

.
Yep, I hear ya. It's like teetering on the edge of a cliff sometimes. I still call what I went through emotionally a slow motion panic attack. I wanted so badly to hurry up and fix it, but I had to wait for Luna's belly to be able and receptive or I would have done more damage than good.

Originally Posted by Ninasmom

1 immodium binds her up for 48 hours, so that's my window. I know she was uncomfortable yesterday, I could see it in her eyes. But this morning she was playful and ate her breakfast with enthusiasm. She's living in the master bathroom today (where she spent yesterday as well), but Rogan can still see her, talk to her and nuzzle her and Dasher hangs out with her so she's still getting her love.

Well, good! I'm glad to hear she's bounced back. She's done incredibly well for an incredibly long stretch of time, and that certainly says volumes about the care you and your husband have given her.

If you need any help, let me know...and give Nina a scritch for me.

[Ninasmom]

I went to the vet's office to get a copy of her tests and the doctor had taken her file home to re-read the whole thing. Honestly, I am really happy about that, but I want her numbers for you to see!!! On the 23rd they are going to do a full blood panel work up on her to see what's what. They want to give her that long for the pred to kick in and (hopefully) stabilize her.

TOFU TOFU - I'm going to Publix and stocking up on Tofu!!! At this point, I would hang upside down if I thought it would help her. I'm willing to try anything that gives her the possibility of continuing her life in comfort.

I'm the rational one, simply because Nina is 'DH's dog' (Rogan is mine). He's the one who hand-raised her at 5 weeks; he slept for months with her curled around in his hand because she was so little. He's the one who goes with her to all of her vet appointments; he was her first OB partner; he's been on the floor during the night with her through every episode/surgery. While he will know when it's time, I just think he won't want to admit it until it's time because it's so painful.

I'm off to get the book from amazon.

[Ninasmom]

I wanted to post an update on Nina. We haven't had an episode in 36 hours, so yay! She's eating her rice mix with vigor (the pred always helps with that) and she had her first, tiny, bm not too long ago (the metronidozle helps with that). She is sleeping hard but is definitely feeling better. She's playful and wiggly, which she hasn't been in a week.

DH is going away on business next week, so my mom is coming to help out. Nina and Rogan adore my mother (and the feeling is mutual), so the dogs will love having Grandma here during the day to entertain them.

Moondog - I promise to get those numbers from the vet tomorrow. Today was just completely crazy.