Rabies vaccine/mental damage?

[JonandMichelle]

Have any of you (preferably breeders/Vets) heard of or believe in that giving the rabies vaccine at an early age (before a year old preferably) or any age can cause or may cause mental damage/serious change of behavior in a dog? Have you heard of any ill side effects (besides the common loss of appetite, ect. for a few days)?

There is a method behind this question but I don’t want to lead any responses.

Your responses, facts and/or opinions are of great importance to me and are truly of value.

Michelle

[MARYDVM]

Homeopathic folks believe rabies vaccine can cause "Rabies Miasm" a mental disorder that can include just about any undesirable trait or behavior you can name. A woman very seriously lectured me on how her line of dogs was still suffering from fear and unstable temperaments due to rabies miasm, even though the last two generations had received no rabies vaccinations at all. According to her, the rabies vaccine had permanently altered the DNA of her dogs' grandparents, thus the problem still appeared in each new generation. She couldn't just be breeding unstable dogs - oh no, it was all the fault of the vaccine.

Fear and aggression problems often become more pronounced as a pup with weak nerves matures. People find it easy to blame these problems on anything but bad genetics.

In 23 years, I personally, have never had a client tell me their dog suddenly and permanently changed its demeanor after a rabies vaccination.

[JonandMichelle]

Thank you for your imput....I hope to read more

[marianne]

From my dog Watson's medical records.
Rabies 10/21/99
Blood tests for seizures 11/15/99
This dog did receive his other boosters the same day as the rabies shot!

He had seizures the rest of his life, I truely believe the combination of the boosters with rabies CAUSED the epilepsy.
He had been both phenobar and pottasium bromide after the staus seizure which almost took hs life,

Today I know many tests are being done for the causes of giving BOTH vaccines at the same time. To this day I will never let my vet do both the rabies and boosters at the same visit!

Watson died 5/16/02 from seizures.

[slinger]

Just speaking from my own experiences, my dogs never had any ill effects from a rabies vaccine. They never lost their appetites, nothing. I don't believe in all their years, that they were ever given the rabies vaccine at the same time as other vaccines though.

~Leanne

[hatemzalloum]

i have had dogs for the past 36 years, ever since i was 6 :), never noteced any side effect due to the rabies vaccine.

[frontierrots]

I have had severaldogs get "weird" within a week of the Rabies vaccine however all but one got better again. The one that did not had an immediate personality change after vaccination which improved slightly as time went on, became worse again after her 1 year rabies booster and then improved slightly as she aged but always got worse for months after each Rabies booster. She went from an exceptionally outgoing and promising dog to an entirely different dog within a week of her vaccine

One of my Shiba pups had a seizure after his first rabies vaccine at 12 weeks and had one each time he was boostered throughout his life and at no other time

because of the above experiences I now wait til 6 months old to vaccinate for rabies even though NH state law is 12 weeks. I have had nothing other than the temporary weird dog reaction since

[BostonRott]

I know of one Rottweiler breeder who felt the rabies vaccine could affect the color of the dog's adult teeth. Therefore, puppy owners were not supposed to vaccinate before 6mos (and/or when teething was done).

Many Golden retreiver breeders feel that the rabies vaccine can affect temperament and I know of several breeders in that breed who are adamant that the vaccine be given at 6mos or later.

[Sharon Marples]

We've never had a reaction as such to the rabies vaccine. However, we do not give it prior to 6 months of age and we do not give it within a month of the pup getting any other vaccinations. We also discontinue the use of any and all vaccines once our dogs turn 7 years of age.

[jakesfostermom]

No reaction to the rabies vaccine in my 30 years of dog ownership - but my current vet is very much in line with waiting until they are over 5 months of age. She also does not believe older/senior dogs (10+ years) should/need to be vaccinated if they are inside dogs. I've watched closely this discussion about the rabies vaccine (very interesting how it seems to run in line with the current discussion of children vaccinations causing autism).

[BostonRott]

One of the theories that I have heard regarding the rabies vaccine and temperament is that myelination is not complete at the age of 20 weeks (or is it 16 when a rabies vax is commonly recommended?? Sorry, I can't remember as I don't follow that protocol). The rabies vax affects the brain, and can cause more impact if myelination is not complete. I've been looking for some info on this and haven't found a lot, but here are a few bits and pieces:

" Rabies, a viral disease of the central nervous system (CNS), can take 10 days to a year for the virus to reach the brain but, once it does, encephalomyelitis symptoms include excessive motor activity, excitation, agitation, confusion, combativeness, bizarre aberrations of thought, seizures and other CNS dysfunction. After Pasteur began to inject patients with rabies vaccine in the 1880’s, it became obvious that brain inflammation was a side effect. Encephalitis and polyneuritis has been estimated to occur in as many as 1 in 400 vaccinated individuals, with Hemachudha, Griffin, et al in 1987 presenting evidence for an immune-mediated mechanism involving antibodies to myelin basic protein."
Source: National vaccine information center - article on autism

With regards to the MMR vaccine's effect on children (and whether or not it is a contributing factor in autism):

"Nerve cells of the brain function by conducting nerve impulses, Much like electrical wiring, these cells require insulation to function normally. This insulation is provided by myelin sheaths, made up largely of fatty material. For the most part myelination of nerve cells of the brain does not commence until after birth. Most is laid down during the first 5 years of normal development. It is now generally thought that the process of encephalitis, whether from wild viruses of live-virus vaccines, is associated with an interference with the myelination process brought about by the development of antibodies against myelin basic protein, a constituent of the myelin sheaths.

In theory there are several mechanisms whereby the MMR vaccine could have increased potency to induce harmful autoantibodies (antibodies which attack the body's own tissues and organs, including the myelin sheathes).

Carrying this line of thought further, in 1993 Vijendra Singh, PhD University of Illinois, published a study in which they found antibodies to myelin basic protein in 50 to 60% of autistic children tested."

Above info referenced from:
Singh VJ et al., Antibodies to myelin basic protein in children with autistic behavior, Brain, Behavior, and Immunity, Vol. 7, 97-1203, 1993.

Web source of article referencing the above cite.


So while the debate on autism and vaccines rages on, there does seem to be some data which would suggest a link between vaccines and auto-antibodies against the myelin sheath. Does this cause temperament changes in dogs? I don't know, but if I can safely wait to give the vaccine (and legally wait), then I do so. Rabies is in this area, however, my personal dog's risk of exposure is low (they are never outside unattended, our yard is fenced, etc).

[JonandMichelle]

Thanks for all the indepth replies.

I am just having a VERY HARD time wrapping my little brain around the "idea" that "Rabies Miasm" could make a dog become weaked nerved/spooked/low threshold/no recovery period to situations...I could go on...

Once the term "Rabies Miasm" arised from MARYDVM, I did a search on it. WOW! It was like I had found a cult Discussion forums of Homeopathic Vets blaming this on everything that the average Joe would be like.....Bad breeding, weak nerves, dog needs training, needs a behaviorist. I was seeing people asking questions like, "My dog is eating the whole house. Lunging at people while on walks. Going after my children. Everytime I leave the house, she whines and barks".....HELLO??? But they all want to blame it on "it's Rabies Miasm!" Those evil vaccinations. There is actual detoxifications for this "illness" so you can cleanse these dogs and make them better.

I'm sorry but I'm calling a spade a spade. Breeding is a gamble. Even the very best of breeders can have that one pup that just didn't make the grade. It isn't the breeders fault. IF that puppy was raised correctly, trained, socialized, ect....It's not the owners fault. It's called GENETICS.

Am off base here? Are there really people who truly believe in the "Rabies Miasm" theory? I am an open minded person.....BUT, I need something to back up the talk.

[BostonRott]

No, I don't think you're off base at all. I think people look for excuses when they don't want to hear the truth.

I find the research info from autism to be intriguing and heartbreaking. I do not think autism is made up, and it seems very similar to what can happen with the rabies vaccine in a FEW dogs.....those VERY few who are genetically predisposed/susceptible to something in the vaccine causing problems in their body.

I would think that if this Rabies miasm were real, there would be defined criteria for what it is, and what it is not. That seems not to be the case from what you've written.

Edited to add: I recently found this statement and found it of interest. Several here have mentioned seizures. "Both rabies and distemper viruses have a predilection for the brain tissue in their natural live state and their vaccines could potentially cause mild brain inflammation in susceptible dogs, leading to such conditions as behavior changes or seizures."

[MARYDVM]

The reported instances of encephalitis in humans following rabies vaccination all involved the older (and much more dangerous ) vaccines made from the actual brain or nerve tissue of animals that had died of rabies. A little checking revealed that they still may be using this vaccine in third world countries (!!) This vaccine could easily stimulate antibodies against myelin since it contains these tissues from a foreign species.

All the rabies vaccines available in this country are killed, so the virus cannot travel to the brain. And they contain no nerve tissue whatsoever. You might get a generalized autoimmune disease from an abnormal response to the vaccine, but it cannot target the brain cells in its current form.

[mmgy]

Originally Posted by MARYDVM

Homeopathic folks believe rabies vaccine can cause "Rabies Miasm" a mental disorder that can include just about any undesirable trait or behavior you can name. A woman very seriously lectured me on how her line of dogs was still suffering from fear and unstable temperaments due to rabies miasm, even though the last two generations had received no rabies vaccinations at all. According to her, the rabies vaccine had permanently altered the DNA of her dogs' grandparents, thus the problem still appeared in each new generation.

I belong to a natural rearing list where there is a woman that breeds a very rare type of dog from another continent. On the home continent, she says there are NO epileptic dogs. Here in the US, every line suffers from epilepsy, with some seizures lasting for hours. She blames "vaccines, artificial food, and other environmental stresses" that have been imposed on the dogs since they came to this country.

Once she told a story about a sheltie mix that went in and out of rescue several times, and each time was subjected to a full schedule of vaccines, including rabies. In her words, the dog was a "walking rabies miasm." She felt that for all intents and purposes, the dog actually carried rabies. The dog was becoming more and more aggressive, and was put down.

My interest in this was piqued by my 14 year old beagle, who suffered with small seizures, pica and reverse sneezing for years. Over the last 6 years, as we have pulled away from annual vaccines and constant chemical pest control, her sneezing has slowed, the seizures have vanished, and the pica only appears upon administration of a vaccine or flea treatment. The folks on that list have classed my Maggie as a dog with rabies miasm, but I think that it's simply been a matter of not allowing her to be bombarded with too many treatments at once.

I was given this article to read:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/froghol...accBlanco.html