Pennhip??

[GypsysMom]

Has anyone used this? my vet said they test at 4months of age (or older) and get a score (similar to OFa) They also said it is a better,earlier determenation if your dog will devolp hd The fee is $198 results are in 10-14 days

[Barry]

Penhip is a trillion times beter than OFA. Ofa is very subjective. Penhip is based on an objectivly gatherd number. Im amazed that anyone still puts any credance in OFA. My guess is, as people become more enlightened, OFA will join the ranks
of leaches , snake oil 8track tapes Dinosaurs.

http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/pennhip.htm
Regards
Barry

[SonnyRott]

Yes!

Just to show the severity of my dogs hips, his PennHIP was .08 on both sides! Because of his PennHIP, we were able to get an early diagnosis and proceed with early intervention and surgery.

[GypsysMom]

Thanks so much I am going to have it done in August she will be 5 months then (money makes it harder to do before that) Do you know what a good score would be? The vet said to keep her on the supplements she has been taking to keep the joints lubricated

[RottsNScotts]

While PennHip is becoming utilized more often, you have to also be aware that it is NOT accepted by Code of Ethics clubs as an acceptable means of hip evaluation.

So, it can give you plenty of early information but you would have to re-do them at 2 years for COE clubs.

[BostonRott]

The other major problem with PennHip is that MANY of the dogs who are evaluated are dogs with shady OFA results (people looking for another way to get "passing" hips). Therefore, the data in the database is slanted towards abnormal joint conformation and so comparisons between dogs are a bit altered.

Analogy: If you compare a 9th grader's reading level to a 3rd grader's, of COURSE the 9th grader is going to look better. The better question is, how does that child compare to their peers?

The OFA database has 85,308 Rottweilers in it. When your dog's xrays are evaluated, they are compared against 85,000+ Rottweilers. The PennHip has not even 10% of that.

As I see it, the only real reason to do PennHip is if you seriously suspect a problem or have strong reason to believe (ie. BYB or bad pedigree) that the dog is at high genetic risk for HD.

[GypsysMom]

I thought about doing it because my moms friend had a Rottweiler from a reputable breeder OFA was Excellent on the parents and the dog got severe HD at 6 months and died before she was 1 The dog was replaced but it concerned me I will do the Pennhip Then XRays and OFa when she is older for more of a determantion

[BostonRott]

It has been discussed MANY times the importance of checking not ONLY the parents, but the parents littermates' OFA status. If a dog is OFA Excellent, but has multiple littermates who are dysplastic, the dog is a poor breeding candidate. This is explained in further detail here: OFA breeder's guidelines

HD is a polygenic disorder. Therefore, in order to avoid it, you need to know the ratings on as many dogs "sideways" in a pedigree as possible, as well as those in direct line.

[jakesfostermom]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

The OFA database has 85,308 Rottweilers in it. When your dog's xrays are evaluated, they are compared against 85,000+ Rottweilers. The PennHip has not even 10% of that.

Thanks for posting these numbers Gretchen - it is my understanding that the PennHip procedure is used and preferred in the world of (Labrador) Retriever owners and not necessarily in the world of Rottweiler owners. I understand Barry's feelings on the two procedures, but when specific breed owners support one over the other, if I were going this route, I would prefer to use the procedure that my own dog's xrays would best be evaluated compared to the largest collective "like kind" xrays available....but that's just me

[rottcrazed]

Subjective or not, OFA still will not allow a dysplastic hip to pass. They have different grades according to what they see. Jewel's hip rated 'fair', Wicca's prelim'd 'good' - I can visibly see the difference when I look at the slides with my own eyes. I kept the slides for future comparison purposes.

Kristi

[Barry]

Originally Posted by jakesfostermom

Thanks for posting these numbers Gretchen - it is my understanding that the PennHip procedure is used and preferred in the world of (Labrador) Retriever owners and not necessarily in the world of Rottweiler owners. I understand Barry's feelings on the two procedures, but when specific breed owners support one over the other, if I were going this route, I would prefer to use the procedure that my own dog's xrays would best be evaluated compared to the largest collective "like kind" xrays available....but that's just me

Just because you compare it to the largest known database does not really demonstrate the soundness or the validity of OFA method.Truthfully their is no real contest.

OFA looks at the general conformation of the hip socket and then
rates that conformation against other dogs of the same age group and
breed. The radiographs are actually sent to 3 different orthopedic
surgeons (I believe specialists) and then the average of those three
rankings is your evaluation.

PennHIP looks at the conformation of the joint, but then more
importantly measures the laxity in the joint. This is called the
distraction index. All DI's are between 0 and 1. The closer to 0
that you are, the tighter the hip joint. You are ranked against the
entire database based on your dog's actual score. It is a figure,
not an interpretation.

The premise is that you can have a joint with "excellent"
conformation, but if it is lax and the bones are able to bang around
inside that joint then you could have a high incidence of
degenerative joint disease or debilitating arthritis. Likewise, if
you have a joint with so-so conformation but also very tight, then
they will be less likely to cause arthritis though continual bone on
bone trauma.

The most profound thing about PennHIP is that it has actually been
proven to show that if you breed dogs with DIs lower than the mean
(tighter than average), that you produce tighter hips.
Unfortunately, no one has been able to prove though published data,
that if you breed dogs with great conformation of hips that you will
produce better conformation. OFA has been used for a very long time
to screen breeding dogs, and yet the population has not gotten much
better…if at all. Even in small controlled situations (specific
breeding programs for service work), there has not been
statistically significant data to support OFA. I should qualify…
that I have been able to find in published work

Regards
Barry

[Barry]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

While PennHip is becoming utilized more often, you have to also be aware that it is NOT accepted by Code of Ethics clubs as an acceptable means of hip evaluation.

So, it can give you plenty of early information but you would have to re-do them at 2 years for COE clubs.

Im sure in time Code of ethics clubs will catch up to the modern world and see the logical scientific merrits of Penhip. Their will always be people who insist that the world is flat, no matter how much credible empircally gatherd data you provide. I really think it is fundamentally unfair, and a tremendous disservice, to our dogs to hold on to antiquated methods of medicine.

[GypsysMom]

To be honest the only one that I want it to be accepted by is myself I have no plans on breeding I want this test done for myself and Gypsy just to find out what her hips are like , I adopted a rottweiler once with severe Hd At that time I could not afford surgery for her and she became aggressive with my kids so She went to a home without kids and people that could afford her medical needs. SO I want to have some kind of idea for my own satisfaction

[BostonRott]

As I've already pointed out, many of the Rottweilers using PennHip are those with questionable hip joints. Not ALL of them are, but many. So......when you send your dog's xrays in, and they are compared against "poor conformation" and you get a "good" rating...........is it really good? Comparing yourself to junk doesn't necessarily give you a truly good rating, it merely means that you're better than "junk." Personally, I'd rather have my dog compared against the best and get a top rating, then be compared against the worst and get a good rating.

PennHip is also a "for profit" organization, the OFA is not. That in itself has always raised my eyebrows.

If you want a truly objective measurement, that doesn't require some funky device (which many question whether or not this device has damaged the hip sockets of young dogs), look at what the ADRK does with the Nordberg angle. THAT would be my method of preference.

PennHip requires that a dog be put into a device which basically tries to pop the hip out of socket and they then xray and see how far they were able to pull the joint apart. This is how the laxity is measured.

In a breed where people stress "not overdoing it" with young dogs, for things that involve NORMAL joint movement (running, jumping), I don't see breeders jumping on this bandwagon any time soon.

[GypsysMom]

So Boston In your opion since you seem quite knowledgeable with Rottweilers Should I wait and save the $200 and get her xrayed and OFA at 2? Like I said Im not breeding I just want to be sure she will be ok with hips Now what about just a normal X-ray before hand to see how her hips look (well in a few months) I dont know alot about all this The pennhip website said a dogs laxity of the hips at 4 months are what they will be at 1,2 and even 3 yrs of age. My vet can do regular xrays and look at them to see how her hips look now then test again when she is 2 and send them in to OFA