Penn Hip or "regular x-rays", opinions?

[Tank's Grandma]

Jake, our rescue pup, is limping. Now he and Tank got pretty wild yesterday, so it could just be a soft tissue injury, but having dealt with hip dysplasia with Tank, I've been planning on having Jake's hips x-rayed for my own peace of mind since we have no idea about his background.
My regular vet does regular x-rays and puts the dog under anesthesia to do them. The ortho surgeon who performed Tank's TPO does Pen Hip x-rays and doesn't put the dog under.
now, assuming all things being equal, in the proficiency of the person performing the x-ray, I'm just wondering if there is a difference, or preference, for diagnosing hip dysplasia in a young pup 5-6 months old.
and yes, I'll be calling the vet's office tomorrow.

[Judi W]

For a simple diagnostic xray, you should not need anesthetic for either as they will not be submitted. I probably would not want the PenHip simply because I don't think you need the pressure that is put on the dog for the laxity test involved, but other people have other opinions.

At this age, I would simply have a film and look at the ball and socket.

[Judi W]

PS,
I would be more inclined to decide on whether to do this at all based less upon a limp after banging around, and more depending upon the dog's movement, possible weight shifting to the front, and how the dog stands when not be baited or on high alert.

[MARYDVM]

PennHip absolutely requires that the dog be under anesthesia. There is no way to get the compression and distraction pictures in an awake dog. PennHip is a more complete picture of the state of a dog's hips than an OFA shot.

[Tank's Grandma]

Originally Posted by MARYDVM

PennHip absolutely requires that the dog be under anesthesia. There is no way to get the compression and distraction pictures in an awake dog. PennHip is a more complete picture of the state of a dog's hips than an OFA shot.

I misunderstood or more correctly assumed wrongly, based on the fact that Tank's post op x-rays were taken without anesthesia, but these were just post op x-rays, not Penn hip diagnostic ones, so I just assumed they didn't use anesthesia for them either...my wrong assumption. But I do know they at least will do regular ball and socket x-rays without anesthesia which my regular vet does not,
and Judy, he will get a regular exam to see what's going on with the limp before I do anything. Guess I'm just a little worried when I see limping after what we went through with Tank. There is no hip clicking like we had with him at least.
thanks.

[SonnyRott]

Originally Posted by Tank's Grandma

Jake, our rescue pup, is limping. Now he and Tank got pretty wild yesterday, so it could just be a soft tissue injury, but having dealt with hip dysplasia with Tank, I've been planning on having Jake's hips x-rayed for my own peace of mind since we have no idea about his background.
My regular vet does regular x-rays and puts the dog under anesthesia to do them. The ortho surgeon who performed Tank's TPO does Pen Hip x-rays and doesn't put the dog under.
now, assuming all things being equal, in the proficiency of the person performing the x-ray, I'm just wondering if there is a difference, or preference, for diagnosing hip dysplasia in a young pup 5-6 months old.
and yes, I'll be calling the vet's office tomorrow.

Oh boy. With the both of us having gone through TPO, I know how you feel. I pray it is just a "play" injury and nothing more than that.

Sonny had both regular x-rays and Penn Hip. The Penn Hip was "dead on". The regular x-rays showed good hips (he ultimately became dysplastic) while the Penn Hip performed at 5 months showed extreme subluxation on the distraction view (.8 both sides).

Since I had nagging suspicions about Sonny's hips anyway, having the Penn Hip performed early (and diagnosing his extreme "loosness") gave me the knowledge I needed to alter his lifestyle to prevent further damage.

I think Penn Hip is more accurate as it takes into account 3 views not just the 1 standard "straight leg" view.

Good luck...and let us know what happens.

[diddybopper04]

Wouldn't it be nice if OFA and PENN HIP would get together so we could DX abnormal hips better in our breed.

We really have made very little progress in the eradication of this disease seeing that films have been being submitted and normal dogs used for breeding in many breeds since the early 70s. The stats tell the numbers. SOME improvement, but certainly not what one would expect over a 30+ year period of selective breeding.

I think the exray techniques need to be more detailed, I think submission of films on ALL PUPPIES IN A LITTER needs to be seriously encouraged, and certainly the steps towards a more open data base is marvelous.

I also think a vet should have to undergo SPECIFIC TRAINING in order to qualify to make OFA films on dogs.

Just my 2 cents worth on the subject....

[SonnyRott]

Originally Posted by diddybopper04

Wouldn't it be nice if OFA and PENN HIP would get together so we could DX abnormal hips better in our breed.

We really have made very little progress in the eradication of this disease seeing that films have been being submitted and normal dogs used for breeding in many breeds since the early 70s. The stats tell the numbers. SOME improvement, but certainly not what one would expect over a 30+ year period of selective breeding.

I think the exray techniques need to be more detailed, I think submission of films on ALL PUPPIES IN A LITTER needs to be seriously encouraged, and certainly the steps towards a more open data base is marvelous.

I also think a vet should have to undergo SPECIFIC TRAINING in order to qualify to make OFA films on dogs.

Just my 2 cents worth on the subject....

AMEN sister!!!! While Penn Hip is making huge strides in becomming much more accepted in many breeding circles, it is still not as widely accepted (or as popular) as OFA. It would be wonderful if the two came together for the good of the breed.

I have talked to breeders who "poo-poo" Penn Hip as saying it is nonsence and not necessary. Hmmmmm....just gets me to thinking. How many of these breeders do not want to risk a Penn Hip because in all probability their dogs would not be considered "good" breeding stock. They sure would lose a lot of money. But we sure would have a more acurate and healthy breeding pool....don't ya think?!

[Tank's Grandma]

I understand what you're both saying, I've looked around on the web, and belong to two dog ortho boards and have heard the stories. In this case, my regular vet did good x-rays on Tank. They were used by the ortho surgeon we were referred to, there was no question about the state of his hips. However, they anesthetise to do the x-rays, whereas the ortho surgeon does not, so if x-rays are necessary, I will try and get the ortho surgeon's office to see him. I just don't know if they'll see him without a referral from the regular vet first. Am calling as soon as they are open.

[SonnyRott]

Sonny has been under anesthesia about 8 times now:

From the initial x-rays at 5 months, to the Penn Hip evaluation, to the ongoing x-rays to monitor changes (vet didn't want to jump into surgery without trying conservative methods first, hydrotherapy etc.), to the neuter as a result of the eventual HD, to the TPO, to the post-op up x-rays, and to an ostoscopy (deep ear cleaning), I'm concerned everytime he goes under. I hope he never has to go under again.

Because of his size, it was always recommended that he be put under. In my case, the Penn Hip method was extremently accurate and a test I would not hesitate to do again.

But as Judi stated, at this early stage, start conservatively.

[Tank's Grandma]

He sees the regular vet today for an exam. My vet is really good, she's pretty young, I like what I hear and see fromher, is very good with rotts, gets down on the floor with them and manipulates the leg to evaluate if the problem is knee, hip, etc. The ortho vet said if at that point they feel he needs x-rays of his hips, they will do them without putting him under. As I said, all of Tank's post TPO x-rays were done without anesthesia. But he loves them there. His pinch collar came off once when the tech was taking him to the back, and the tech just held up the leash and Tank just merrily followed him on back.

[Tank's Grandma]

Just back from the vet. She was able to fully extend both of Jake's hips including the sore side and he didn't even turn around to look at her. She said he's walking too well for it to be a break anywhere, he limps the worst after he's been lying down for a long time. So she feels that it is not a hip problem right now, and probably a soft tissue injury from boys being boys and to try and rest him as much as possible and see how he does.
So, while we were there, since it was time, we got our last set of vaccines, and our microchip. He was great! The boy got high praise from the vet.

[Tank's Grandma]

Forgot to say, she did however say that if, with rest, there is still any question, we will go ahead and x-ray his hips and not wait until he is neutered. As the window of opportunity for things such as TPO is very narrow.