Torn CCL (aka ACL)

[BostonRott]

Bort ran into Vikka REALLY hard the other night (I missed it), George said Bort bowled her over. No pain, no limping at the time. No limping at all that night. Yesterday morning she wakes up and is severely limping on her left rear leg. Doesn't seem to have a lot of pain, I can move the leg around just about anyway that I want without eliciting pain. Needless to say, this is scaring the hell out of me.

Decided to wait out yesterday to see if time and some anti-inflammatories (Yucca, white willow bark for pain, MSM, Vit C, and a supplement called bone & tissue with lots of stuff in it) would help. SHe's restricted to no stairs, no being out with the other dogs, etc. She did decide that yesterday was a good day to jump up on the agility table (Grrr!!!!!!!!!)....at which point she went on strict leash walking, and she's more than willing to pull hard on the leash when on a good scent, or jump up on me in the a.m. (standing on hind legs). She does keep the weight off that leg when peeing.

I've checked the paw, the joints (no heat)...............this is scaring me biggggg time. Vet is closed today (it's the 4th of July), so hubby is taking her in tomorrow (I have to work).

In any event, I found this website, it's VERY informative for those who want more than just "this is the CCL, these are your options."

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/Lewis/Cross-CCL/ccl.pdf

[MARYDVM]

That's something I'm always worried about with my super active girl. Can you get a "drawer sign'? Sometimes they tear one of the lateral supporting ligaments in a crash type situation (ACL tear is usually while in motion - hyperextension) The collateral ligaments tears are not as limiting in long-term function as the ACLs.

[Judi W]

I intend to hold my breath that she is simply hurt and not "injured". Bad tumbles are common with these rough necks and we hope no serious injury.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by MARYDVM

That's something I'm always worried about with my super active girl. Can you get a "drawer sign'? Sometimes they tear one of the lateral supporting ligaments in a crash type situation (ACL tear is usually while in motion - hyperextension) The collateral ligaments tears are not as limiting in long-term function as the ACLs.

Well, either her knee is intact, or her muscling is preventing me from doing anything, but that joint ain't even thinking of budging. For now, I have HUGE relief! Do dogs ever have to be sedated to perform a drawer test, because they won't relax enough?

The other thought that Diane had was that maybe Bort wrenched her back and a nerve is being pinched. Our chiro is a vet, hopefully she's working tomorrow.

I tried the "CP" test (flip the foot upside down, top of toes on ground) and she flips it back IMMEDIATELY (I almost have to fight her to get it upside down) so there's no significant neuro deficit.

I can't get over her seeming disregard for this, it's more like it's unstable vs. painful. Any other thoughts? Tests? (The scientist in me is going batty not knowing!!! )

[MARYDVM]

Unfortunately, it is quite possible for a large breed dog to "hide" a drawer sign until anesthetized. Also, a partial tear will not draw, but will still be painful. To check collateral ligaments you try gently flexing the stifle to the left and right (not the way the joint ever normally bends) in a tight muscled dog you might get a little extra movement or some signs of pain if one of the collaterals has let go.

[flyballmom]

I just about fell out of my chair when I saw this Gret. Yikes....makes my skin crawl. Unfortunately, yes, it is possible to need sedation to elicit the drawer sign. (That would be sedation for the dog, not you.) My ortho couldn't get one in Charleigh either time without knocking her out. Yes...leash walking only. If it IS her CCL, it's not straight line walking or even running so much that will do her in...it's jumping, twisting, anything that will put more torque on her knee. If she's torn her ligament, but the meniscus is still intact, you want to keep it that way. Like Diane said it could be her back too...just make her take it easy till you find out what's going on. Fingers, toes, paws crossed it's just soreness. Oh BTW, awesome link...hope it's OK I shared it with Orthodogs.

[BostonRott]

Did they see ANY movement in her without sedation? I tried Banja (for comparison) and she's the same way (and I know she was relaxed/not in pain/not tensing).....absolutely does not budge, even the slightest.........I could probably get the corner of my wall to move more.

Poor Vik doesn't understand why she's in the crate, and Ban wants to know why her play pal is not out.

[flyballmom]

With tear #1, my regular vet "thought" he felt a little laxity. By the time I took her to the ortho I guess she was on to him...he couldn't feel any movement at all. With #2 I bypassed the regular vet and took her right to the ortho. He couldn't feel any movement at all until he sedated her. #1 was a complete tear, #2 50%. Gretchen, keeping my hopes up that she's just sore. When did you say it happened? If it's a tear it would be weird that it took her a day? days? to have pain.

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Did they see ANY movement in her without sedation? I tried Banja (for comparison) and she's the same way (and I know she was relaxed/not in pain/not tensing).....absolutely does not budge, even the slightest.........I could probably get the corner of my wall to move more.

Poor Vik doesn't understand why she's in the crate, and Ban wants to know why her play pal is not out.

[BostonRott]

Friday evening was when George was playing with the dogs. I was out running errands and wasn't home at the time it happened. I noticed nothing at all that night, I remember playing on the floor with both girls (tug, honk the nose, grab the feet and other obnoxious dog torture games). Saturday a.m. she got up (she was sleeping on the bed with us) and wasn't weight bearing on the leg. We thought perhaps it was a leg cramp.

I also know that Banja had been playing "bite and tug on Vikka parts" on Friday (ears, hocks, etc) but nothing that elicited any pain, pulling away or noticable problems.

There have been a few times when I've looked at her and thought both legs seemed weak (like when she's first gotten up) and I don't know if she's "forgetting" that her left leg is affected or if maybe she has something else ? Lyme? Ehrlichia? RMSF? She's too old for pano (will be 2 in August) I've seen NOT ONE tick on any of the dogs this season (after Froli's screaming Ehrliciosis and all that learned about tick-borne disease, I got over dislike of collars and they've been wearing Preventic with EXCELLENT results).

If partial tears don't "draw," is there any way to distinguish that from other problems? I trust the women at our veterinary implicitly, they're incredibly talented, and also very willing to refer out. I'm hoping that I can meet George & Vikka at the vet tomorrow and be there for the appointment. Either that or hubby's going with his Nextel and I'll listen in by phone.

[flyballmom]

Partials do "draw" it's just harder to get them. Plus these guys are GOOD at guarding. If you can't go to the vet with George, send him with a list of questions and "demands." I'll come up with my top few and PM them to you later today.

[BostonRott]

I'm starting to think Vik has a broken toe, or at least a badly sprained one. I took her out for a brief walk, and she went through some freshly cut pine sap/sawdust (hubby is removing dead decorative trees). When we got in, I started trying to get the stuff off her foot (all over her paw/pad) and one toe kept causing her to pull her foot back. I played with all the other toes, and even the toes on the other rear foot, no reaction. When I started to look at it, I think it looks more swollen and the toe is not lying inline with the rest of the foot. Being the neurotic scientist, I just took pics and put them online, see here:

http://www.pbase.com/bostonrott/first_d70_pics

You can click on each pic to enlarge it. As you look at the photos, it's the innermost toe, so on the Left foot picture, the left-most toe, and on the right photo, the right-most toe. I realize the Right foot pic is darker, but you can see that the toes all lie in-line, and the left foot definitely doesn't.

She prefers to lie on the affected leg, which I would think would be very painful if this was her knee, especially as she's on an eggcrate dog bed (which therefore puts a minor degree of torque on the knee). But, if it is her inside toe, by lying affected-side down, that puts the inside toe "up" and not being pressed upon by anything.

Keep your fingers crossed for us!!!!

[MARYDVM]

Bliss and I can relate to the broken toe thing. When she broke hers there was instantaneous pain and swollen to twice normal size in about 1 hour. However, you can have less pain and swelling if they catch a toe on something and seperate a joint rather than fracturing it. That would be a "good" injury compared to the other possibilities. They often tend to carry a toe injury slightly different than a stifle. With a sore toe the foot is usually carried somewhat high to avoid the ground, the stifle is flexed. With pain in the stifle, the foot is usually held just above the ground to keep the stifle as close to extension as possible without having to actually walk on it. Not an easy distinction to make, or even a truly reliable one, but something that might help in your observations.

[BostonRott]

Yes, she's carrying it more flexed than extended, and she will weight bear. Her most recent walk was definitely more weight bearing than previous attempts, when she's focused on something else (scent), she limps only minorly.

[flyballmom]

Hmmm....paws/toes do look different. MY fingers and toes are crossed that is ALL it is. No fun but better than other things. I'm holding off on PM'ing you that list...it's more appropriate for an ortho anyway.....mostly if the vet think's it's NOT the paw....Sedation for x-rays of knees, hips and spine, and check for a drawer. GOOD LUCK!!!!!! Let us know ASAP please. Breath is held...Charleigh says to tell Vikka that CCL surgery is a REAL drag and that she hopes she has a broken toe.

Dogs with CCL tears do lay on the affected side tho...Charleigh plonked herself down on her TPLO leg first thing when she came home. Maybe they think it's protected that way?

[BostonRott]

Vik has been in her crate all day except for leash walks, she's definitely bummed, probably thinks she's been bad. Have her out while making pesto for dinner (think I picked a weee bit much basil) and she's limping far less, she's actually weight bearing on the leg.

A few other questions:

Do dogs with blown knees readily/easily fold back into a sphinx down? She's doing that with no problem (of her own volition, hoping it will earn her a sprig of basil). She also still has tight sits (again, offered on her own).

When going through the whole Froli ordeal, Frol chewed the pad and underlayer right off her toe (due to some weird neuro sensation from the spinal CA). Even the vet said "Eww!!" upon seeing it. That said, it was her outside toe and she would absolutely NOT weight bear on it. This was a dog who wore her pads to bloody pulp on the table one night (but never bothered to tell me) and I found it when we got home. Same dog who had a 2" straight pin smack in the middle of her big pad and played 20min of frisbee before I found the pin. I was amazed by how much she reacted to single toe, and I keep thinking of that when I see Vikka hobbling.

O man, she's standing in front of me, and I can see that one toe, the poor nail is about 30-40 degrees pointed in under her. OUCH!

In reading Greyhound pages, there are injuries (forget the name, something along the lines of stubbed or stung or stuck??) in which the lateral ligaments of the toe aren't torn, but there's a lot of swelling/bruising. Then there is the actual dislocation where the lateral ligaments are torn. And then there are fractures.

Hopefully she'll just come home with a buddy-taped toe, and nothing further!!