Ulcers and Throwing Up Blood

[rottsnroses]

I came home for lunch on Wednesday to feed the dogs and take them outside to potty. Max didn't want to eat, which is highly unusual for my little piggy. A few minutes later, he vomited twice - a frothy, mucousy bile that was tinted reddish brown with blood. Not streaked, but solidly tinted with blood. Even though he otherwise acted fine, I freaked out and rushed him over to the vet's.

They tested the sample of vomit I brought with me (now I know what a turkey baster is good for!) and confirmed it had a significant amount of blood in it. They took his temp (normal) and a stool sample, and did not find any blood in his stool. The vet felt around his abdomen and said everything felt normal to him.

He diagnosed him with an ulcer in his upper GI tract and put him on Cimetidine 200mg 3x per day for 5 days, and Metocloprimide 15 mg every 8 hours for 5 days. We are also feeding him boiled chicken and rice for the next few weeks.

Our vet seems to think that the ulcer is caused by a food allergy, and suggested switching him from Canidae (he is currently on a mix of canned and dry) to Science Diet. His other thought is that the Ester-C I give him could have caused an ulcer. He said dogs can't process vitamin C and it is just excreted in their urine; however, it raises the acid balance and can cause ulcers. So he is also off the Ester C.

Max seems to be feeling fine and by all outward appearances, he has been doing extremely well on Canidae. His coat is gorgeous with no itching, flaking, excess shedding, biting his feet, diarreah, etc. - any of the things I would normally associate with a food allergy. Also, since switching to Canidae last September, he has thrown up only once before Wednesday. I sure as heck do not want to switch him to Science Diet as there is more allergic triggering crap in that food than in Canidae. I am not opposed to another super premium like Solid Gold or California Natural, but I am not so sure that this is the right thing to do as I am kind of questioning this diagnosis.

Can someone tell me how ulcers are diagnosed? What I mean is, shouldn't the vet have run blood tests, take x-rays or scope out his GI tract to confirm that this is in fact an ulcer and not something else? Also, if it is in fact an ulcer, what else besides diet could be the cause?

I really like the vets in this practice, although I am not particularly confident in this particular vet. He did not schedule a follow-up visit, just orders to take the meds and call if the vomiting continues. No other instructions. From what I understand, ulcers can be dangerous, if not life threatening. Does this sound like normal protocol, or am I just over protective and over reacting?

I'm really interested to hear what others think of this.

[Rott-Wiley]

Well, your vet is wrong about the use of vitamin C in dogs. Here's a link that discusses it: http://ighawaii.com/naturally/newsletter/lpvc.html

And -- here's an interesting story of someone's dog with ulcers: http://www.bowwowbakery.com/Ulcersindogs.htm

[chivas]

Only think I can help you with is with the Vitamin C question.
Chivas' holistic vet prescribed 8000mg daily to help her battle osteosarcoma and she never threw up. That is an extremely high dose, I cant imagine why your vet would say that unless he is stumped and grasping at straws.
Does he mean a SD prescription food or just the regular food? Cause I would NOT put him on the regular food.

[frontierrots]

Sucralfate is a human prescription med used in dogs also, for ulcers and to prevent them. It is given 1 hour prior to feeding twice a day at first (when you already have a problem) then just once a day

Angelica takes it to help prevent the Piroxicam from eating her stomach. She originally was taking Piroxicam without the sucralfate and she developed vomiting blood and pooping blood. Within a couple days of the sucralfate she was doing fine. Now she takes the sucralfate 1 hour before her pm meal, then she eats, then she gets her Piroxicam.

I have never seen nor heard of Vit C causing ulcers. Just things like Rimadyl, Metacam and other meds

[Judi W]

Do you have him on anything else for the HD? Anti inflamatories can very easily cause stomach problems.

I know that if not worked up to Vit C in large amounts can cause diahrrea, but have not heard of it harming the stomach.

I don't think your vet was being careless. He simply was not going to charge you a couple of thousand dollars before seeing if the med solved the problem.

Diet. Canadia hardly has limited ingredients, and certainly does not limit the number of things that could cause an allergy. Regardless of the high quality, they have everything but the kitchen sink in there and it might be that a change in diet could help. You won't know what the vet was recommending unless you ask. The special forumlas whether Hills or Purina can be quite effective.

It could easily be that after a round of stomach meds and limiting what goes in, he will be just fine. Try the simple solution first. Best to the boy,

[moondog]

My dog has been on prednisone for just over 3 years now and she takes 150-200mg of cimetidine with each dose of pred to help prevent ulcers from developing...so far, so good.

I've heard of high doses of Vit C causing urinary tract problems for some dogs, but haven't heard of stomach problems associated with it, either.

I'm not seeing where you say he has HD, but Judi mentioned it (from another post, maybe?), so I'm also curious if he's taking any anti-inflammatories OR neutraceuticals (glucosamine/chondroitin) for HD?

If his problem is due to a food allergy, the best experiential way to identify the offending ingredient is to go back to basics and do an allergy elimination diet.

[rottsnroses]

Thanks for the links and for the input everyone! I will print the info out on vitamin C and take it into the vet on Monday when Luna goes for her shots.

The vet specified a homecooked chicken and rice diet for the next two weeks, or Science Diet I/D. We opted for homecooked. It's not that I have anything against SD RX diets. Without a doubt, they have their place in the treatment of specific conditions, but the vet wants us to put him on SD long term. I checked the Hills website, and he is probably talking about D/D, which is for allergic dogs. I looked at the ingredients, and there a few that concern me - Brewers rice, by-products, rice protein concentrate, ethoxyquin - all cheaper ingredients I want to avoid in his diet, especially the ethoxyquin. If this is a food allergy, I want to explore alternatives for an allergic dog with a better quality of ingredients. If necessary, I'd feed raw or homecooked. I just don't want him on a lifetime of food with ingredients in it that I am not comfortable with. The vet was not familiar with Canidae, Solid Gold, California Natural, or really any of the super premiums, so I will bring some printouts of these ingredients when I go back.

Max isn't on any anti-inflammatories or nutraceuticals. At the recommendation of his breeder, he has been on Ester-C as a preventative supplement rather than a treatment. He has been on it since he was a pup. He also gets kelp every other day and vitamin E once a week. He will be x-rayed for HD when he is 2, but as far as we know, he does not have HD.

I'm just concerned as to whether ulcers are, in fact, the problem. He acts his normal self, he is eating normally, his poop is normal, but the problem is on the inside so I can't really tell if he is better or not. I'm probably just over-reacting and just need to relax and see what happens. I am just worried about him.

Are ulcers normally how food allergies manifest themselves? Wouldn't there be signs on the outside if he was allergic to something he is eating (i.e. itching, dry skin, chewing on his feet, ear infections, etc.)? He has none of those symptoms.

[Judi W]

Never had a dog with allergies, but I tend to agree with you about expecting other symptoms. My vet says ear inflamation is often such a sign even if not more overt things. I just mentioned the meds because they are often a culprit in stomach problems.

It probably wouldn't hurt at all to go to an elimination diet starting with a two ingredient meal. Usually it takes about 3 weeks I understand. I know we have people here who will have detailed info. There are also some decent kibbles that have limited ingredients. Judy C is an expert I believe. Canadia is not a good diet if allergies might be suspected as it has too many ingredients. Try to be flexible.

It could even be (being a youngster) that he got into something and you might never see another episode once the healing takes place.

[rottsnroses]

Originally Posted by Judi W

It could even be (being a youngster) that he got into something and you might never see another episode once the healing takes place.

Geez, I sure hope that is all it is and it will come to pass! (pun intended) ;) When he was a pup, everything within his reach went in his mouth. I think he thought his name was "DROP IT" for a long time!

Luckily he seems to have outgrown that stage, but he still has a desire to sometimes explore the world with his mouth.

[Rott-Wiley]

Originally Posted by rottsnroses

Are ulcers normally how food allergies manifest themselves? Wouldn't there be signs on the outside if he was allergic to something he is eating (i.e. itching, dry skin, chewing on his feet, ear infections, etc.)? He has none of those symptoms.

No, food allergies usually don't present as ulcers. There are vets that do specialize in treating allergies and if things don't improve with the vet you currently are seeing, I'd suggest you look for another opinion.

I once had a dog that was allergic to grasses, mold, metal, cotton and wool. We finally had her desensitized and put on a life long diet of cooked chicken and rice with vitamins and supplements. She did fine after all that.

[Squeaky2004]

"When he was a pup, everything within his reach went in his mouth. I think he thought his name was "DROP IT" for a long time! "


Sounds exactly like Squeak! I think she thinks that is her name. She eats or tries to eat absolutely EVERYTHING!