basal temperature

[beth gordon]

What is a rottie's basal temperature (temperature taken first thing in the morning I think)? What is its relationship to thyroid function?

[shybird]

If I remember correctly a normal temp for a dog is about 101.3

[beth gordon]

Does it vary by time of day?

[moondog]

I haven't seen anything that refers to a connection between body temperature and thyroid (haven't really looked, either), but I did see a couple articles on studies that linked low core temperature to narcolepsy in dogs.

Temperatures for people are usually lowest in the morning and rise slightly in the afternoon, but I have no idea if that applies to dogs, too. And, of course, the level of physical activity will also influence body temperature.

[Judi W]

Rectal is 102

[Beckysmom]

an aside...was diabetes checked for on your dog?

[Beckysmom]

You have a bunch of dogs, yes? You could take --perhaps axillary to make it easier--temps on all dogs first thing each day for several days / weeks and see if the one with problems is running any different than the well ones. If lower, tends to suggest that thyroid supplementation would be helpful...thence back to your vet.

[Beckysmom]

Thyroid function has effect on mammalian temperature. Not the only thing that does, so it is not dispositive.

But in this case a low temp may suggest that the low normal lab tests are having an effect on the dog, not just that low normal is fine for that particular dog. Still not dispositive but could help convince vet to give some exogenous thyroid a try.

sorry about "exogenous" -- it wanted to be there so I let it. :)

[Rottlva]

Hmmm..... do they do axillary temperatures in dogs ( armpit, correct?) ? Wouldn't a rectal temp be a better representative of the core temperature?

Yes. I agree with Becky's Mom, hormones affect temperature ( especially before a heat cycle), periods of the day affect the temp, age affects the temp, so a metabolic change would affect the temp as well. Since hypothyroidism slows down the metabolism, temp should be affected.

Beth, are suspecting hypothyroidism in one of your dogs? Has the vet told you to monitor basal temperature? (just really curious now as to the connection) :)

[beth gordon]

Winnie is overweight and raw fed. I have had 3 thyroid tests on her and each came back low normal. My vet wants me to put her on Purina Obesity Management and I am really not comfortable doing that. I posted on the Nutrition thread asking for advice and one of the responses said she might need thyroid meds anyway and asked if I'd checked her basal temp. So that's how I got to this point. I am more confused than ever.

[poohbearsmom]

Is your dog symptomatic of a thyroid condition in any way?

My girl, Pooh, tests a low normal, since whelping last year. Prior to pregnancy, her T4 was right down the middle. It dropped to low normal, but she was extremely symptomatic - dry brittle fur, watering eyes, and ITCHY (all she wanted to do was lay on her back and do her "dying cockroach impersonation"). I put her on a minimal dose of meds, and voi la ~ like new. It bumped her up to a high normal testing, and now we're all happy. Pooh's temp averages 101F

I happen to be the same way, I test "low normal", but it isn't normal for ME.

Regarding weight gain, most of the weight gained in a low thyroid patient (because of thyroid) is water weight, so it tends to cause edema, and not actual weight gain. So, if your girl is really big, I wouldn't necessarily blame all that on the gland. Some of it perhaps, but not necessarily all of it.

Tests are a good basis to go by, but looking at the animal and what's physically going on can give you the real clues.

Good luck!

[Beckysmom]

Originally posted by Rottlva
Hmmm..... do they do axillary temperatures in dogs ( armpit, correct?) ? Wouldn't a rectal temp be a better representative of the core temperature?

Yes. I agree with Becky's Mom, hormones affect temperature ( especially before a heat cycle), periods of the day affect the temp, age affects the temp, so a metabolic change would affect the temp as well. Since hypothyroidism slows down the metabolism, temp should be affected.

Beth, are suspecting hypothyroidism in one of your dogs? Has the vet told you to monitor basal temperature? (just really curious now as to the connection) :)

Worse than qn of do they do axillary in dogs is that I just checked for humans, and the hypothermia of hypothyroidism apparently is best checked rectally even in humans ... They can do axillary in dogs... it isn't as accurate, but would be easier on a number of dogs for a very basic sense...but not apparently any good for this purpose.

They can do it in ears with special ear thermometer... that would be good if person had it and, if, big if, it shows up the hypothermia of hypothyroidism.



Beth, what about checking the whole panoply of autoimmune diseases, not just thryroid and diabetes? Poohbear'smom has some good advice for you to help solve your more confused than ever feeling. Do you know how to take a rectal temp in a dog? If so, could try taking it and reporting back if it is or is not normal. If you already suspect thyroid problem and temp is too low, that helps to confirm... simple as that. Too much thyroid tends to produce warmer temperatures, too little lower than normal / average. Seems you have the normal rectal here as 102 degrees, so if you know how to take it rectally just do it. (key IME is lots of lubricant on the thermometer, good time for some of that vitamin E oil.)

And, are there special formulas for raw diets that are truly low in calories while still giving satisfying quantity and nutrition? That is whaat the commercial weight management ones are supposed to do.

[Rottlva]

Beth, off on a tangent here, but if your vet wants Winnie to go on Purina OM, wouldn't a low dose of soloxine ( if hypothyroid is the problem) get that weight down? I'm not sure how long she'd have to be on it to get to normal, but wouldn't that be better then changing the diet if the underlying cause is a thyroid problem which is causing the weight increase and possibly some of the lethargy as well?

Then the secondary cause for the weight gain is probably the CHD which is aggrevated by the weight, so by taking that Solixine, and getting the weight to decrease, Winnie would be set up for success in getting more and more exercise to decrease the weight on those hips.

But saying that, there are so many endocrine disorders which alter weight. What are the other symptoms that you are concerned with ?

[beth gordon]

poohbearsmom, the only other symptom I see is that while the rest of the dogs have shiny, shiny coats, Winnie's always looks like puppy fuzz. Other than that, it's the obesity, that I feel is not due to overfeeding. My regular vet and an orthopedic surgeon I took her to to evaluate the possibility of a HR would not put her on thyroid medicine because they think it can be altered with a change in diet.

Beckysmom, I have Winnie on the diet version of raw fed dogs. She gets a skinned chicken back and a lean meat ball (that houses her supplements). In the morning before I leave for work she gets 3 one-inch Wellness bars which I have now halved. I just can't cut her back any more. I am taking her to the vet on Wednesday for more blood work. Something you said just also triggered a thought. Periodically she gets these growths on her eyelids that only respond to prednisone and that the vet said are a function of an autoimmune problem. Maybe there is more to this than has been looked into by my vet.

Rottlva, I am going to ask the vet about a lose dose of thyroid meds to maybe kick start her metabolism. I would much prefer that to changing her diet. The only symptoms I see are the poor coat quality. She is bright-eyed, sweet-natured, has an active wiggle butt (from the floor...), seems happy, is affectionate. She just has that fuzzy dull coat that never looks healthy. How does an endocrine disorder look different than a thyroid disorder? Are there different symptoms?

Thanks so much for your help and suggestions. You just know so much! Thanks again for trying to help my Winnie.

[Beckysmom]

Can you do some reading on autoimmunity and endocrine system etc. and on obesity?

I think part of why you are confused is that we are using terms that are outside your familiarity -- thyroid disorder would be a subclass of endocrine disorders. Endocrine disorders are common along with autoimmune illnesses. For example the most common reason for low thyroid in humans is probably an autoimmune problem called Hashimoto's disease. Endocrine disorders and autoimmunity such as diabetes may be set off by poor diet. (Too many cookies too little nutrition, for example)

To explain all this would take chapters out of several books. I suggest that you read in both the Merck Manual for people version, and the one for veterinary as a place to start.

Another reason you are confused is that you started with my statement that you could take basal body temp to help confirm that if a low temp, some supplemental thyroid could probably help...and then got lost in people speculating whether or no there is relationship between low thyroid and low temperature.

If you would accept that I know what I am talking about and that that relation does exist, and just take your dog's temperature first thing in AM daily from now to vet visit that might be a helpful thing to know and be able to report. Your vet may not know that the two are linked. You may need to explain it by reference to Myxedema (low thyroid, low temp) and Graves (high thryoid, high temp) diseases in humans. You can also see if there is a web site for the Broda Barnes foundation that may help you to understand this better. (dogs and people both being mammals this is area where basic metabolism is the same)

Please put your dog on an appropriate diet as recommended by your vet.

Breaking cookies into halves isn't it. Tiny calorically dense meals isn't it.

It is clear to me that you don't understand how to achieve appropriate diet or nutrition with "raw foods" (which IMO does not include cookies for breakfast as "raw foods" diet. Even good quality cookies = dessert not breakfast, and rest of what you are doing is also off target IMO, so not enuf just to leave off the cookies)--please use the prescription diet.