Osteo and a 8 yr old dog

[RottiMomCT]

Our overweight crabby 8-9 yr old rescue girl was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in her front right leg a week ago. My father in law (she's his dog) has decided to have the leg amputated, and will manage her pain until it is her time to cross the bridge.

Since Friday, May 2, she has been getting .75 mg of cortisone 2x a day and that has really helped with the pain, and Rimadyl for inflammation. I have spoken with the in-laws regarding trying to get some weight off of her even after the leg is amputated.

Mom in laws says it's cruel to try to 'force her'to exercise when her time is limited, and father in law says nothing. I have explained that if she can lose weight it'll be easier for her to get around and could prolong her life even more.

They have said they want her to enjoy the summer...but I really think they want to keep her with them through the summer.

They do nothing with the dogs...they let them out the back door and they stand around in the back yard and bark while mom in law takes a nap and father in law cleans the house.

I guess I'm being the practical one here and thinking of her well being while she still has time on earth...but also want them to understand what they're up against after tomorrow's surgery. A good friend of mine who lost a rottie at 7 yrs old to osteo after amputation is going to stop by on Friday to talk to them about it and help them devise a plan on how to help her up & down the stairs, etc, etc, etc...

Can anyone offer insight into what I can tell them in regards to trying to get weight off of her (which I've been telling them for over a year!). She weighs 103...should be about 85-90. Vet would like her to be at about 90 post surgery & recovery...obviously the loss of a leg will take some weight off, but they need to know she still needs to lose weight to be otherwise healthy depsite having cancer.

Thanks in advance. They are the typical stubborn dog owners...love them to bits but do nothing with them...I think they want the dogs but don't want to deal with every aspect of having them....grrrrrrr........so, if ya'll can include stuff I can print out and show 'em I think that'd help.

[chivas]

Do they realize how fast this cancer spreads??? I know of dogs gone within 2 weeks of diagnosis. Where her lungs xrayed? If they want to lessen pain - radiation may be the answer. I lost my girl to osteo last year and went the holistic route and she survived alot longer then 80% of the posts i ve seen on here. Also, I dont think rimadyl is good for bone pain like that. My vet prescribed piroxicam and my girl did very well on it. This cancer is AGGRESSIVE . Amputation alone wont buy her more time and she may not last the summer even if they do amputate. If all they are concerned about is pain management , look into pallative radiation. I have been there with 2 dogs, trust me on this.

[Nina&Bill]

Oh Anne :( Not the "manatee"? I'm so sorry to hear about this. Kim is right, this cancer spreads quickly and it's usually already micro-metastised through the body by the time it manifests itself in a visible tumor (planting seeds as it were :(). But I have read on this forum where a number of people did amputate & the dogs did quite well.
You know that I lost Smidgen to OS. We decided not to amputate & that's a decision that I don't regret mainly because she continued to use the affected leg right up until the end & because she was 11 at the time of the diagnosis...I didn't want her to spend her best remaining month laid up. Your situation is different & you're dealing with a much younger dog but you're right, her convalescence will be much easier if she loses some weight. Post op getting around on three is going to be difficult enough if she's porky. Even if exercise isn't really an option (how about fun stuff like fetch?) gravy dipped veggies as treats can help fill her up.
Bill built a great ramp for Smidgen out of pallats. We all just walked up & down the ramp along with her (although Bill had to carry her most of the time because she was afraid of the ramp).

Good luck, Anne. I've gotta admit that I panicked when I saw your name in conjunction with a post on OS but I knew that Ben wasn't nearly that old. I'm so sorry...this is a wretched disease :(.

Nina

[JeanT]

If she hasn't lost weight by now, because the owners haven't tried, they won't try later. And she doesn't have enough time to safely lose a lot of weight anyway, I think. Also, unless her hips are definitely good, she will be in bad shape trying to get along on three legs.

Finally, her life expectency will be the same whether she has the leg amputated or not. Do they understand that? She will either make it through the summer or not, whether she has three legs or four. So, I do not understand why amputation is being considered. What about her quality of life through the recovery period, if she makes it through the recovery period? It sounds to me as if the recovery period is going to be too much trouble for these owners to cope with and they'll probably have her PTS anyway. Pain management can be pretty darn effective through radiation and/or medication, until the end.

[alexav]

I'm sorry, but I must vote NO on the amputation. If this were a 5-6 year old dog in otherwise good physical condition? Fine, do the surgery. But to ask an obese dog to bear that excess weight on only three legs to buy how much time? I don't think I'd even consider it.

[RottiMomCT]

They want her to be pain free without extensive pain killers and other routes (ie - radioation/chemo). Also, I hate to say it, they are taking the less expensive route to treatment since they hear that chemo/radioation is thousands of dollars. Stubborn fools they are...he has cancelled, rescheduled, cancelled, rescheduled and she went in this morning for surgery.

I saw the x rays taken 3 weeks ago, and also saw xrays taken last week...big difference in the area where the cancer appeared. They have x-rayed her lungs and they are clear - for now. She'll be x-rayed prior to surgery and we have agreed that if the vet see's MAJOR changes in those x-rays based on the previous two sets the leg stays and we go for pain management.

They are hoping for a few months...I think she'll be gone, sadly, within weeks, whichever route they had chosen, based on what I have read here and at other articles I found online, as well as talking to the vet and rfiends whose dogs have had osteo.

They're stubborn...they feel they're doing the right thing.....we'll see...

Thank you all for your thoughts....seriously, if I thought it'd make a difference, I'd show this to them, but it HAS made a difference for me....thank you ALL. I know youguys can be counted on for practical 'been there, done that' advice and help.

[frontierrots]

Kim is right. Rimadyl is a no no for this dog. Piroxicam is much much better and in some forms of cancer (like bladder cancer) it actually slows or halts tumor growth. It won't stop the osteo but is a far far better choice of med than Rimadyl

The only caution I have is that sucralfate should be taken 1 hour prior to the piroxicam to avoid stomach problems

My Angelica as been taking these for a year for her bladder cancer. She's 11 1/2 and the average life expecancy for bladder cancer dogs treatd with Piroxicam is 6-12 months. (with a few longer ones) My girl is doing just fine!!

[chivas]

thanks Diane, i feel i DO know something about this cancer. And I also forgot, Chivas was also given cytotec to protect her tummy 3X a day. There are also new treatments now that Chivas didnt have even 8 months ago. Fosomax can be used to help rebuild bone (but it is NOT a cure) and there is an exciting new herb out called 'artemisinin' that is showing promise in early studies. Look into this months WDJ for more on that.
Kim

[cyberrottie]

RottiMomCT wrote "Can anyone offer insight into what I can tell them in regards to trying to get weight off of her (which I've been telling them for over a year!). She weighs 103...should be about 85-90. "

The obvious thing to tell them is that reducing her weight will be more comfortable for her. Older dogs have weaker legs, and now she'll be carring 33 lbs. per limb as opposed to 25.

Unfortunately, exercise may not be an option. Not necessarily because of the amputation--dogs don't get hung up on the loss of limbs like humans do--but because, as Kim said, osteo is an aggressive disease and if it has matasticized, it will continue sapping your poor girl's strength. I lost my girl Xena to osteo on 3 Feb 03, and toward the end, it was her inability to stand on her own and to find the strength to enjoy the things she always had that led to our decision to help her on. She was a spry 70 lbs. and had all 4 legs.

If your girl has energy, I can't think of a reason not to exercise her as long as she's enjoying it. Even toward the end of Xena's life, she still liked the ritual of putting the collar on and taking a very abbreviated walk, even if it was just around the yard or down the block.

The most important thing will be to regulate her diet. Cut back on the carbs, which feed the cancer. A better diet might help your girl shed some of that excess weight.

But, if as you suspect, she truly only has weeks left, the most important thing to focus on is enjoying your time together. I'd also push back on your in-laws reluctance to use pain meds. Pain management is an effective way of increasing the quality (although not necessarily quantity) of your girl's life. Don't rule it out because they do.

Most importantly, trust your judgment and use your girl's eyes and body language as your ultimate guide. She'll let you know what's right.

Good luck, and I hope your girl can win the fight that mine couldn't.

Best regards,

Andy & Xena

[JeanT]

Pain medications, even oral narcotics, do not make the dog "dopey" as we might be used to seeing in people. I told my (then) vet when Little Bear had osteo that the demerol didn't seem to make him "dopey" (it was helping the pain). That vet said that it doesn't affect the dog's sensorium the same way as people's. I can't guarantee that since this is the same vet who told me that piroxicam had no benefit for dogs (with apologies to Little Bear and chivas), but it was consistent with my observations. Please, be liberal with the pain management. (My new vet says piroxicam is the correct current medication, and much better than rimadyl. It's too late for Little Bear.)

There is no way to know whether it will be 2 weeks or 3 months. Please, please be liberal with the pain medications.

[RottiMomCT]

Sorry...should have clarified when I stated they didn't want to go the extensive pain meds route...

They DO want her to be as comfortable as she can be without making her 'incoherent', and will make sure she is comfortable and able to enjoy her remaining time.

I stopped by the vet on the way home today to see her. She had been out of surgery for about an hour and was very heavily sedated. Surgery site is a shock, to say the least, but she came through well....even got a nice pedicure for her too long nails, that we'll continue to get to a good length...

She'll hopefully come home on Saturday afternoon, and the folks have set up a small area using an ExPen in the bedroom for her (she freaks in a crate but is fine in the ExPen). They'll put down wee-wee pads for her just in case, but will get her up and moving as soon as she's able (offer her cheese and she'll probably do anything <LOL>!).

I know my father in law will think he's done something horrible when he see's her, and will feel guilty for a while, but he knows he'd feel the same thing if he didn't opt for surgery...who's to say.

I'll pass on the lower carb in her diet info to them....we'll probably try anything to help her out at this point.

I don't see her as much as they do (I live on the lower level of the house) and have let them know that if those of us who do NOT see her every day notice that she is struggling or that she appears to have gone downhill alot, we will bring it to their attention. I think they'll be blinded by the thought of losing her to realize she's trying to tell them she's ready to go.

Thank you ALL for your support...for now, we enjoy what we've got....tough decisions come later in the month/year...we'll see.

[alexav]

I hope she does well and gets to enjoy at least a few good months.

[Barb and Raven]

My Kasy was nearly 8 1/2 years old when she was diagnosed with Osteo. I reluctantly chose to have her leg (left front) amputated. The vet had given her about six months. I chose not to put her through chemo or radiation. When I picked her up after her surgery I wanted to cry seeing her bandaged up and hopping on the other three legs. But she seemed to be just fine with it. Of course, at that time she was still on a morphine patch.
As for getting around at home she did really great. She chose to go down and back up the stairs on the back deck on her own. I was very surprised to see that she could do that. She adapted very well to getting around as she used to but was now hopping. Anyway, she went for xrays every three months. The vet was watching for metastisizing in her chest area. Every time was negative. Finally, one year later the vet still had not found anything so checked all the other xrays. As it turned out, the xray taken just six months after the surgery showed a very small tumor in her other front leg. Each xray after that showed it a bit larger. Two weeks after her last xray her hips gave out on her. I called the vet and she said that it's very common with that type of cancer. Two days later I let my Kasy go to the bridge. I was with her and telling her how much I loved her and always will (and crying like crazy:( ).
I hope I have written something that may be helpful to you. As you can see, Kasy was given 6 months and lived for a full year after.
Good luck

[RottiMomCT]

HUGE thanks to everyone who respoded. I know there are so many of us who have lost dogs to cancer....and I never really thought O'd be one of those people (I'm not, yet...but to know there are so many of you who will be there when the time comes, that REALLY helps).

I saw the old broad Thursday, about an hour after she had come out of surgery. The surgery site was, well, quite a shock, but she did raise her head and open her eyes a bit when she heard my voice, so that was reassuring to me that she was still 'in there' :) . I spent about 1/2 hour with her (then drove home and the brakes locked on my car and caught fire, but that's another thread...not a good day Thursday <lol>!).

My father in law saw her yesterday. Still thinks she's mad at him but he said she scooched around to be able to lay her head on his lap while he visited with her and she gave him lots of kisses (that's nothing new but I'm sure it helped him 1000%!). The vet said the swelling and bruising has been minimal which is great, and said she was sleeping on her right side when they came in yesterday morning (right leg amputated), so either she's gettng too much pain medication or she's feeling good. She almost always slept on the right side since the day we brought her home 3 yrs ago. She was able to get up and even went outside for a quick potty, which seemed to have helped him ALOT.

We are going to be putting carpet on the inside stairs and outdorr (yuck but hey!) carpet on the back deck stairs to help with the traction issue.

I am going to have the vet WRITE DOWN what he thinks she needs to make sure she does better since they don't seem to listen to things that are TOLD to them, especially if they have not been told directly (grrrrrrrrr!!!).

She'll probably come home on Monday, but I know they'll go see her today, and I'll see her tomorrow when I drop off a rescue dog there.

So, Monday the 'challenge' begins. For everyone...for the dog....I think she'll do better than we will!!!

I'll update everyone as things change. Thanks again.

[Nina&Bill]

Anne,

Glad to hear that she's coming along and again, I am so sorry about this :(.

Barb, thanks for posting...I knew that I had read on this forum about a rottie that lived a good while longer after amputation. Still not long enough, though.

Anne, good luck with everything...and hug Ben for me, please.

Nina