Immune System Boosters?

[spidey]

My sister's young Irish Setter (a Nottweiler) seems to have an underfunctioning immune system. He's had recurrent problems with chlamydia and folliculitis, and he has always had formed but very soft stool (he's had 2 negative fecals from different stools 6 weeks apart). He eats Wellness fish & sweet potato formula (which is pretty hypoallergenic), supplemented with pumpkin (which I recommended to her after reading about it here) and yogurt (he started the yogurt because he was on antibiotics for the folliculitis). All his treats are Wellness or 100% dried liver (very small amounts for training only). She's a dog groomer who works in a vet clinic and has a very good relationship with the vets there. His vet says he thinks he's got an under-functioning immune system, and he thinks he may outgrow this (he suspects it may be related to something that happened when the dog was really young, since the dog was born in a tropical country and only moved to Canada at 3 1/2 months). Does anyone have any suggestions about supplements which may help boost his immune system? I'll be upfront and say that I'm not a believer in things like homeopathy, but anything non-homeopathic which falls into the "can't hurt, might help" category would be much appreciated.

[rottcrazed]

Yes, I'd like a little info on this too. My puppy is now 17 weeks old, she came home from the breeder with roundworms (really bad infestation) and then proceded to get Giardia, a nasal infection that took two different antibiotics to cure, and she now is on antibiotics again for a bacterial infection causing more diarrhea.

She eats Canidae and is supplemented with yogurt daily, plus a probiotic for absorption. What about pumpkin? I thought that is like a laxative for dogs. Does it have an immune-boosting affect? I'd love to know more myself. I have never had these problems with any other puppy before, PLEASE, ANY INFO WOULD BE GREAT!!!!!!

Kristi :)

[spidey]

Pumpkin adds fibre, which adds bulk to the stool and can help firm it up. Nothing to do with the immune system. :)

[mmgy]

I've had two friends, a bloodhound and a boxer, go through older puppyhood (7-11 months) with raging infections of several types. The bloodhound owner knows of other dogs the same way, and among her breed there is a theory that some dogs go through a growth spurt with the immune system falling behind. She says eventually it catchs up, and the dogs don't have anymore problems, but for several months it's h***. Her dog is now three, and is fine.

The essiac tea my cancer dog is taking is an immune system booster, but I'm not educated enough on it to know if it's appropriate for this. Try www.essiac-info.org/Pets/index.html, or do a search at www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com. Most of my searches involve cancer, but I know it can be used as a periodic detoxifier.

Good luck,
Mary Mac

[Carina43]

Vitamin C is a great immune booster. I get the small tabs and tuck them ito raw meat/hot dog pieces...500mg per day is a good place to start (though some people megadose with as much as 6000mg daily! Which will give most dogs the runs unless you work up to it.)
My SO is a people doctor & recommends vit C to anyone going through any sort of physical stress - from antibiotics, illness, etc. He also tells people not to smoke so make sure your dogs don't smoke, hehe.
Pumpkin is a good stool regulator, but won't do much to boost immune response. Probiotics a few times a week are a good idea too, keeps the intestinal flora flourishing. I'm quite a believer in a raw (BARF) diet for making a strong immune system, but if you do nothing else, try the vit C.

[rottcrazed]

Thanks for the info, I have given Jewel vit C since I brought her home, mostly to maintain tight feet, had not idea it would have that effect. I have been giving her 1000mg timed released. Do you think that I should cut her back to 500mg? Maybe that's part of the soft stools if she getting too much. Hmmmm???

Kristi

[spidey]

Carina43: She's not feeding the pumpkin for immune system reasons, she's feeding it because of the loose stools. I mentioned it to give a more complete picture. Thanks for the vitamin C advice. :)

[Judi W]

Too much Vit C can cause diahrea so do cut it back. If the food is rushing through due to the vit c the dog is not getting the nutrition it is intended to receive.

[moondog]

I'm working on more to add to this thread, but you guys got me started on Vitamin C, so I'll throw my two bits in on that first :D!

Dogs manufacture Vitamin C in their liver, whereas humans don't, so the only benefit to adding it to the diet is if there is a high metabolic need or inadequate synthesizing in the liver. The trend towards supplementing dogs with Vitamin C began with the suspicion that there may be a commonality between scurvy in humans and HOD (hypertrophic osteodystrophy) in rapidly growing puppies. It has since been established that these are two different conditions, yet the trend continues.

The benefit of Vitamin C is to aid the amino acids proline and lysine in the formation of collagen, which is a structural protein (hence the reference to tight feet? ). The detriment of excessive Vitamin C is that it is excreted as oxalate which in high concentrations can contribute to the formation of calcium oxalate uroliths (mineral composites) in the urinary tract. Ample water intake can help reduce the risk as can reducing Vitamin C intake to nutritionally required levels, which for dogs with a healthy liver and normal metabolism is zero.

And yes! Too much supplemented Vitamin C can cause loose stools and diarrhea. :)

[Carina43]

Originally posted by spidey
Carina43: She's not feeding the pumpkin for immune system reasons, she's feeding it because of the loose stools. I mentioned it to give a more complete picture. Thanks for the vitamin C advice. :)

Oh I know, but she also asked if it had immune boosting properties ;) - and yes, C can cause diarrhea, though with all the stuff Jewel has gone through so far, poor little pup - who knows what is causing her diarrhea!

I don't put a whole lot of stock in many holistic/alternative remedies either - a lot of times things just run their course without much intervention - though often the tendency is to immediately treat the condition with "something" be it allopathic or herbal meds, and assume that "something" fixed the problem. Sometimes stuff just goes away on it's own if you give the system a chance to fight its own battles, and by doing to the system is stregnthened.

Of course with a little pup, or something potentially dangerous or that is making the dog miserable, you should treat it one way or the other. So it's a judgement call, really.

Spidey, how long has your sister had her notweiller? We got Daphne (in very poor health) from the shelter in January. Although she improved significantly with decent care, food, etc, she had a number of chronic little things going on with her for about 6 months. A persistent staph infection, goopy eyes, runny nose. My vet also suggested a "wait & see" approach - one course of antibiotics did not knock out the staph. We upped her vit C, and I bathed her itchy skin (staph rash from her groin to her armpits) with water & apple cider vinegar periodically. Otherwise, she's had no special treatment or meds, and within the last couple of months everything just cleared up. Now she has no rash, clear eyes & nose. Don't know if it was anything I did, diet, or her system finally coming up to speed - but she's the picture of health now! She is perhaps two years old, maybe a little younger, we don't know. Your sister's vet may be on the money..treat the dog as minimally as necessary, perhaps a couple of basic supplements, and wait & see?

[Sullivan]

Hi all :) I am Sullivan the Nottweiler Irish Setter's Mum. I am also Spidey's sister and TriciaB's friend (Sully and Parker are also great pals, I believe Trish has sent pictures that included my little bonehead :) ) Spidey kindly posted this thread for me as I am trying to help Sully with his problems with as little medication as possible, she then suggested that I simply join up and enjoy, so here I am.
I thank you for the suggestions for his immune system, and yes my vet is now taking a course of as little treatment as possible and let this whole thing play out as it will. I have had Sully for six months now (he is just 10 months this week) and he has had loose stool the entire time I have had him, he's been on a couple of different foods, the Wellness was suggested by my vet, and he also suggested putting him on the Fish and Sweet Potato version until he is 15 months or so, just to give his immune system as much help as possible, but when he turns 15 months to challenge him with one of the more regular types, and see if we can kick start his system.
So far the pumpkin hasn't helped the loose stool problem but he does love it and it's good for him so I'm keeping him on it, does anyone have any other suggestions for this problem, as I can't imagine he is getting all the nutrition he should be from his food as his digestive system obviously isn't working properly.
Any suggestions would be welcome.

[chivas]

Vitamin C is wonderful for boosting immune systems. I used it in treating my girl for osteosarcoma and it with other things helped her maintain a wonderful quality of life for 5 months past her initial diagnosis.
You state that you are not too sure about holistic/alternative treatments - well all i can say is what i learned while treating my most wonderful girl for osteosarcoma is ........ I will NEVER go back to most of tradional treatments and preventatives for any of my dogs I have now and in the future. I will find a nice balance between traditional and holistic. Nothing is 100% but with alternative and natural treatments you are less likely to do alot of harm.
Kim

[moondog]

My dog's illness has brought both the gastrointestinal and immune systems into my awareness and close to my heart :) . I found that in order to understand what went wrong, I needed to first understand how it should be. Here's a little immune system primer I wrote for Luna and me. I hope it will be helpful. This is gonna be a long one.............

The immune system is the head honcho of the healing process. It's task is to make a distinction between things that are "self" (naturally belonging in the body) and those that are "non-self" (foreign or otherwise harmful material) and to act by neutralizing or destroying that which is "non-self". The immune system is unlike other bodily systems because it is not a group of physical structures but rather a system of complex interactions involving many different organs, structures and substances that include white blood cells, bone marrow, lymphatic vessels and organs, specialized cells found in body tissues and specialized substances (serum factors) that are present in the blood. In a perfect world, all of these components work together to protect the body against infection and disease. Like everything else in life, the immune system can only be as strong as it's weakest point. If weak point(s) exist, they can be either congenital (hereditary) or acquired (introduced into the body).

The immune system is functional at birth, but is limited in function to what the dam has passed on during gestation. Immunity present at birth is called innate immunity. Immune function develops as the body matures and learns to defend itself against a variety of foreign invaders (antigens). This is called adaptive immunity. All cells of the immune system originate in the bone marrow and some remain and mature there (B cells, NK cells) and some leave the bone marrow and mature elsewhere in the body (T cells). The immune system has the ability to learn to identify and remember specific antigens that have been encountered. This is accomplished by two basic means, cell-mediated immunity and humoral immunity.

Cell-mediated immunity is comprised of white blood cells called T-lymphocytes (T cells) that identify and then destroy cancerous cells, viruses and microorganisms like bacteria and fungi. T cells mature in the thymus gland, where they are programmed to identify one particular type of invading enemy. Not all white blood cells that apply for the job make it through the thymus, though, they have to pass a test first. If the programming is imperfect and they misidentify "self" as "nonself", they are eliminated. Once the T cells are deemed worthy, they are released into the blood stream on a seek and destroy mission of the antigens that correspond with their programming by secreting proteins called cytokines. They also alert B cells (next paragraph) to produce antibodies. I personally find the thymus incredibly amazing and it has made me realize what a very important little detail in the immune system it is. I have also read that the thymus activity begins to bow out with maturity and the management of immune system gradually shifts to the lymph glands, the spleen and the bone marrow. This in particular perked my ears up because it seems to correspond with the problem some older puppies have with weakened immune systems. It may be a lapse in the "changing of the guard" from thymus to the other organ systems that will self-correct, which I suspect is why vets aren't initially overly concerned about it.

Humoral immunity is comprised of white blood cells called B-lymphocytes (B cells) that are involved in the production of antibodies. The antibodies produced are proteins formed to match the surfaces of specific antigens and when those antigens are encountered, the antibodies either damage the invasive cells or alert the white blood cells to attack. When a B cell is presented with a particular antigen, it engineers an antibody to match it and stores a blueprint of the invader in case of subsequent exposure. B cells are manufactured and mature in the bone marrow and come complete with the ability to produce an almost infinite variety of antibodies, so it can match whatever antigen it is presented with. Talk about flexible! This ability is known as "jumping genes", because inside the B cells the genes that determine the chemical structure of the protein to be produced can be shuffled into vast numbers of different combinations enabling it to take on virtually any foreign invader. Humoral immunity is the phenomenon that makes immunization possible.

White blood cells are made from stem cells (embryonic cells that can mature into any type of cell) and are the body's first line of defense against invaders and their ability to move independently in the bloodstream and even pass through cell walls enable them to travel quickly to wherever in the body they are needed. Briefly, :D (are ya still with me?), there are different categories of white blood cells, and each performs a specific function:

Granulocytes - Three types: Neutrophils ingest and destroy bacteria; Eosinophils ingest and destroy antigen-antibody combinations (that's when B cells damage antigens) and moderating allergic reactions by secreting an enzyme that breaks down histamine; and Basophils which secrete heparin or histamine in response to antigens.

Lymphocytes - Three important types: T cells play a major role in cell-mediated immunity; B cells are responsible for production of antibodies; NK (natural killer) cells destroy body cells that are infected or become cancerous.

Monocytes - These are the garbage collectors. They digest foreign particles along with damaged, aging or tumor cells. They circulate in the bloodstream for a day or so and then enter the tissues and clean up there, where they acquire a new name, macrophages.

We all know how important general maintenance is in life :) , and this is where the lymphatic system provides a kind of continuous cleansing on the cellular level, draining fluids from the spaces between cells and carrying waste products, toxins and other debris from the tissues and filtering it through the lymph nodes, where undesirables are removed and the macrophages make short work of them. The rest is returned to circulation. The spleen filters the blood and removes red blood cells that need replacing. It is also the "classroom" where antigens are brought to the B cells so they can manufacture an appropriate response.

This is an incredibly comprehensive system, so how in the heck do we take care of it and what do we do when things go wrong? Maintenance, prevention and intervention only if the system goes awry. Maintenance is providing the full-spectrum of nutrients necessary to the body and prevention would be avoiding unnecessary exposure to things that depress it, such as an overabundance of chemicals, pesticides, certain food additives and other environmental factors, as well as stress.

For people who want to incorporate herbal or homeopathic remedies that support the immune system, it's important to learn about what kind of response the remedy triggers before thinking it could never be harmful, especially if you have a dog with an existing immune dysfunction. The same holds true for conventional treatment as well, but people tend to know that and feel an herbal or homeopathic approach can have no negative consequence and that if it doesn't work, at least it will have done no harm. I'm not convinced that's a fact. Having a dog with a compromised immune condition has taught me that often the best road to health can be found by backing up a step or two and simplifying exposure rather than adding more to the mix and complicating it further. It's also important to remember that the right amount of anything is the optimum amount whether it's a drug or an herb or a nutrient, and if a little is good it doesn't necessarily follow that more is better.

That's all, folks! :D

[Kasey]

I tried a product called canine complete and it seems to be helping my dog. I have Sierra, who has been sick for about three years now and all the drugs did not seem to help. I kept searching and reading and have tried herbs and other products, with my vets knowledge. Then I came across canine complete when I attended a vet conference hoping for something new. The rate my dog was going I had nothing to lose and only her life to save. She has been on the canine complete for six months now and her bloodwork is starting to look good and her chest xray is starting to clear up. I have no doubt that if it was not for this stuff I would have lost my dog a long time ago. I too was at the stage of if it can't hurt the dog why not try it, I am so glad I gave it a shot. Good luck with your dog.