Just not in to working today....

[MrsBoats]

Hi all,

Before I get on to the business of this post, just a little follow up to the Pit Bull incident a couple of weeks ago. So far, I haven't had any issues with Sam and returning dog aggression. We've met a whole load of dogs since then and haven't had one bad experience since then! We even got to meet and make friends with an Irish Wolfhound! That was the first dog that has ever made Sam look like a little pee wee!


But anyway, on to what I was wondering about...

First thing: today, Sam was just NOT into doing any sort of obedience. Oh my god, trying to get him to heel was so painful for Sam. Head down, dragging feet, heeling a foot and a half behind me. He looked like I was taking him to get executed! With the come, he slowly moped over and plopped down in front of me. What should I do when Sam is like this? Just stop the obedience and wait until he is into it? That's what I did today. I have noticed that when my husband goes back to work, Sam mopes around the house and won't get off the couch. You have to literally drag him to his feet. Mr. Boats went to work today (he's in the Coast Guard so he's gone for a couple days at a time) and that could be why Sam was like that.

Second question: We graduated PetsMart advanced dog training a month ago and we wanted to continue Sam's obedience. We took Sam to a local dog training club for the first time last week. PetsMart is huge into positive reinforcement and we use a Gentle Leader. The trainer at the new place wasn't too familiar with the Gentle Leader and recommended we switch to a prong collar or a choke. I haven't used a prong on Sam in a year and a half now. Will this be a dramatic change for Sam switching from positive reinforcement to a prong choke? What could I do to make the switch easy for him? I did use the prong today when we tried to work. I wasn't sure if that made things worse with Sam's apathetic attitude.

I would like to eventually try our hand at competition obedience and our CGC and I know that Gentle Leaders aren't allowed for those.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated! :D

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: MrsBoats ]

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Hawk ]

[RottnKid1]

If you're sure Sam is feeling okay and this is not due to any illness, then it sounds like he needs some motivation. Obedience can be very boring to such intelligent dogs and you'll need to make training varied and fun. Right now, Sam seems to think it's a real chore rather than fun and stimulating.

How does Sam do on a regular flat collar? Prongs are not allowed in AKC, even on the dogs who are just attending with owners who are spectators. A trainer should make it his/her business to be familiar with many training tools, especially something as basic as a Gentle Leader. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I would question the trainer's knowledge in this instance. Preferences are one thing, but lack of knowledge is quite another.

[Amy Davidson]

I don't see any need to add a choke or prong collar to his training if he is doing good without one. I would question the trainer's motivation to add these training devices to a dog who is doing well without them. Why not just a flat collar? I see no reason to move away from positive reinforcement if this is what works for your boy.

Just my feelings on the subject! :)

Amy

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Amy Davidson ]

[Mojave's Mom]

I agree with Amy and Traci on the trainer issue.

As far as motivation goes, try incorporating your working time with something Sam LOVES to do. Mojave and I are competing in Obedience and the one thing I found that motivates him the most is a game of fetch. So, I ONLY play fetch with him when we're out working. I'll bring out the leash, collar and ball and it's like a tornado of whining and jumping around of excitement for him! We'll do one exercise at a time and then when the the exercise is finished I throw the ball for him. Or I'll go through several exercises and then just play ball for the next 15 minutes or so. Keep it exciting and I guarantee he'll get psyched about "working" time. At the shows, I bring his ball along and play with him away from the ring (not off leash!) while we wait to get in the ring...as soon as we're out..we play ball again. :D

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Mojave's Mom ]

[WorkinDogz]

You know...I have a real hard time with excuses (gee..I know that surprises all of you to no end! ;))

"He didn't like the atmosphere", "he didn't like the trainer", "he didn't like the dog that was in the class ahead of us", "he didn't like the color of the carpet".....He's BS'ing you!!

Obedience is RIGHT NOW; not matter what is going on; no matter if you're in the middle of a dream and just about to take the first bite of a marrow bone.....NOW. Period.

YES; Motivation is EXTREMELY important. It's not only necessary to find out what motivates your dog most; but also not to make AFTER training more exciting than TRAINING.

If you want to play ball; do it at the end of an exercise; not the end of a session.

luvarott is absolutely correct. I've seen more YAWNS from dogs (and avoidance; looking the other way the second they hear a command) from dogs who don't know a correction and are not being motivated properly.

Ending the session because the dog "doesn't wanna" is reinforcing that it's just fine to not do obedience if you "don't feel like it".

[MrsBoats]

Okay....now this is weird. I had posted something the other day as a answer to the Sam in good health thing and what my PetsMart trainer had said about my switching to a prong. Judy W had posted something too. Both of these posts are now gone. What's up with that???

I have to run and take Sam for a walk and do some errands before the Mall closes. I'll repost then.

WEIRD!!!!

[Judi W]

When they rebooted the server, I believe they had to use a backup copy so some of the more recent posts weren't on it.

Training the dog: I attend classes with my dogs during the hours I am not teaching. Yes, some of the instructors are more stimulating than others, but that makes no difference. The instructor is not the one to be smiling approval into the dog's eyes, or giving a correction, I am. I am the one with the leash and I am the dog's partner in this training thing. We can do things either the easy way or the hard way, but they will take place. A dog that chooses the hard way usually changes its mind when it becomes clear that the name of the game is "obedience" not "if you feel like it". In the classes I teach, I will sometimes find one of these goldbricking dogs and after being given every opportunity to get a work ethic, I will recommend some serious corrections and/or going to a pinch to add emphasis. It is amazing how a sandbagging goldbricker can learn to pick up its feet and move when it has been explained that the work is not optional. No, they don't get their little spirits broken. In fact they end up being happy workers belonging to much happier handlers. If you don't care how the dog works for you, then the dog has no reason to care. Brisk, happy movement changes attitudes. Physical action and position affects the mental state. The dogs that are dragging around usually belong to handlers that start dragging in their own body movements and it perpetuates a nasty circular behavior cycle. We even have Chows moving happily and briskly for heaven's sake, surely one should expect no less from a Rottweiler, a breed with a heritage of working. The secret is remembering that it is called "obedience" not "if you feel like it". In the long term, a dog that knows what is expected of it is a happier dog and certainly a more welcome dog.

Now, confession. When I entered my "best girl" (Rottweiler) at the age of 12 in veteran obedience, although she was very perky and quick sitting, she didn't do the fast time. We chuckled at her because as an old hand she knew the "normal" was coming up soon. She was beaten for first place by an 8 year old min. Schnauzer.

[alexav]

Originally posted by Judi W:
<STRONG> We even have Chows moving happily and briskly for heaven's sake,...</STRONG>

That makes me smile! :D

And the rest of your post is, IMO, excellent too!

NOTE: The following is not directed at the original poster but at people I have had personal experience with.

It drives me WILD when people expect thier dogs to be interested in them when they are quite frankly BOOOOORRRRIIIING! Or when the human "begs" for the dog's attention. "Buffy. Buffy. BUFFY! BUUUUUFFFFYYYYYY!!!!!" followed by "SEE? She'll listen to you, but she WON'T listen to me!"

People! :D MOVE AROUND! :D Be INTERESTING! :D Provide some good quality motivators and stop being wishy washy!

Sometimes when I am teaching a group class, I feel like a standup comic in a tough room. I have been known to do some pretty goofy stuff to get the humans up off thier butts and excited about thier training. Oh, no chairs in the classroom? Well that would be because I have never successfully trained a dog while sitting in a chair. I have been accused of teaching "aerobic dog training"....Well? GOOD! At least the dogs don't have the life bored out of them! :p

[luvarott]

I would get a thyroid level checked on the dog plus a complete vet check. Also, is this dog in good physical condition ie.proper weight/good tone?
If all this is OK then what you have is a real training problem that CAN be resolved. Rotts are very intelligent dogs right? By ending your training session when Sam did not want to work you have shown him an easy way out, after all it is infinitely easier to be a couch potato. YES, motivating a dog to work is very important, but the sport is called "obedience" for a reason and obeying commands properly (ie.a snail's pace recall is not proper!) is NOT contingent on a dog's mood.
I have seen this kind of training result from many "purely positive" trained dogs, which is what you have been doing up until now? Problem is that the dog is not being definitively shown when he is wrong, thru the use of corrections. The dog is somewhat unsure of exactly what is expected and uncertainty can lead to a poor mood, even when cookies are present! A dog trained with purely compulsives can also display the same attitude, you need the balance in training that comes in the middle and that comes with experience (don't worry! we all muck up a bit with our first dogs :eek :)
Is this new training school producing competitive titled dogs? Do you like the way the dogs from this school work when you watch them in trial? How does the instructor's own dog work? If these questions are answered with an affirmative then I say GO with the new school. Your dog just may experience a lightbulb moment....."why the heck didn't you tell me before that Come meant Come NOW" :D

[RottnKid1]

I agree with WD and Judi - your dog must obey your commands. Proper motivation and timely corrections are all a part of training. But, it's still important to keep training varied and fun. Doing the same old routine day after day is not stimulating and will only result in having a dog who resents his training sessions, just as a horse will become ring-sour. If the training is made fun and challenging, the dog will not become bored and will be much more happy when "going to work." The more stimulating the training sessions, the more the dog will learn and be happy in doing so.

I also agree that the session shouldn't have ended because Sam didn't feel like doing something as this does convey the wrong message. Any and all sessions must end on your terms, whether in training or in play, but it's always best to end on a positive note - even if that means just having Sam successfully sit on command.

Geez, I hope my post makes sense! I just got back from partying with Mr. Jack Daniels :D.

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: RottnKid1 ]

[MrsBoats]

I'm going to try to repost what I said earlier which got erased when the moderators were doing routine maintenance. Plus I have to add some new questions too as things came up yesterday when at the park and I was trying to work.

As for Sam's health, we were at the Vet just recently and he was fine. Everytime Mr. Boats goes back to work Sam goes into this serious funk. It begins as DH is getting ready for work and Sam usually snaps out of it by early evening. It's a funk since it only lasts for the first day of DH's duty period. Sam has always been like that ever since we rescued him. The first couple of times, I did think he was sick. Then I started to see the pattern. The day I had originally posted this was the first day of Mr. Boats going back to work. I had tried some obedience later in the day and Sam was more receptive to working.

I had run into my former trainer at PetsMart that day as well and she said I should stick with the Gentle Leader if at all possible. She said I could switch to a prong collar if I absolutely had to. She said she might take her dog to the walk in classes I had been to and see what this trainer is all about. Which would be kind of cool.

I didn't make it to another class this week as I have the head cold from hell. Over this week and thinking about what most of you wrote. PetsMart was seriously all over positive reinforcement for training. Treats and play breaks constitued a lot of the classes. Sam did really well and learned very fast with positive reinforcement. With this new class I went to, it was very different from PetsMart. I think I was the only person in the class with treats and there were no play breaks what so ever. We did obedience for an hour straight. The instructor didn't make it fun for the dogs and she's very business like. How should I motivate Sam in that kind of environment? No one else looks like they are trying to make class fun for their dogs. He did well during the class and did get tired towards the end since we've never done obedience like that for so long.

I'm sorry I'm so full of questions but I've got more. I about died when I saw the boards were still down last night. Yesterday Sam and I were at the park walking and I figured I would do obedience up there since Mr. Boats has been gone three days and I'm safely out of the funk zone. I brought Sam's high motivating treats too. We walked for about a mile and a half to get away from the hub-bub of partying people. We were wearing the Gentle Leader this time. Sam was plodding along again and really slow. Granted it humid and sticky out Sam got God...do something! Now Sam knows how to do a Stand/Stay. Yesterday he would not do it. He would stand and then sit right down. I would say "No". Try to get him to do it again...same thing. I corrected with a "No" again. Try to get him to do it again. He wouldn't budge. Tried to lure him in to position with a treat...no go. Tried pulling him into position. Nope. Now I'm starting to get a little miffed (which I know I shouldn't do). With each correction Sam shuts down a little bit more and won't do anything but sit. I finally stood him up but physically placing him into a stand stay. Tried it a couple of more times and each time had to place him in position. Later last night in the house....he does a stand stay and off lead too. **banging my head against the wall**

I don't know what do to in these kind of situations because I've never had them before. How do you get a rottie to do obedience when he clearly doesn't want to? Sam has never not wanted to do it before. What I do to make him want to do it? When I tell him to do a command and he doesn't do it...did I do right yesterday by placing him into the stand stay? How do you give a correction for that....we never did "Corrections" in PetsMart...just lure the dog until they get it right. When it's warm and humid outside, do you all still train? Would that cause it?

I'm not trying make excuses for Sam or me....I just don't know how to motivate him other than treats. I don't think I can treat him for everything he does especially if I want to take him further in obedience. I'm probably a newbie to real obedience since all I have done is the the Joe-shmoe homeowners courses.

Thanks everyone

[Judi W]

Head halters are not designed for corrections, they are designed for control which is a different thing entirely. Obviously your "no" didn't hurt his feelings a great deal. No is only a correction if the dog sees it as such.

Training classes. The Petsmart class was probably a nice introduction. The other classes are now starting to get serious about the training. We only have you for an hour and that time is best spent working. Socialize on your own time after class if you wish. I hate it when I am in a class where valuable training time is spent with people standing around chitchatting. I want to work my dog. It all depends upon whether you wish to advance your training, or stay at the puppy level forever. As far as stimulating your dog, as I said, the instructor is not the one holding the leash, you are and that is your job. You are the one to give a happy command and move briskly, tell the dog "good" when he has it right and issue a correction when he is blowing you off. If you have made it clear that you do not intend to ever correct your dog, then the instructor cannot help you. I believe it is just as dishonest not to give the dog a correction when it is blowing me off as it is not to praise when he gets it right. I do not believe obedience is standing around begging the dog to do something and that might be where you are now. You need to decide and once you do, it is your mental decision which will determine the results of your training.

[MrsBoats]

I just re-read luvarott's post and my last post (yikes...I noticed all of the typos too!! ) I'm thinking that's what is going on with Sam. He's purely positively trained. Yeah, this school does have dogs which compete and are titled. I haven't seen the trainer's dog yet. But there is one guy in there with a Irish Setter who is a push-button dog.

Hmmmm....so that brings me to the question what's a good correction? When Sam had some aggressive issues, I strongly corrected verbally and he probably thought he was going to die if he ever showed aggression again. Should I pop a prong collar and verbally correct him? How do you correct your dog when he feels like blowing you off? (Jeez, I feel like the biggest moron asking these questions)

[Judi W]

I have no way of knowing whether your dog really understands the exercises or whether you have simply been luring him into position all this time. It might very well be that if you have only been luring the dog, he really doesn't have the concept. If the dog understands the exercise, then a correction is in order. On something like the stand, I'd put my hand on either side of the collar, give a brief shake and a tongue lashing, and tell him to pay attention. For a moving exercise, I'd use a leash correction. As I said, however, you cannot give corrections on a head halter, so my suggestions all presuppose a training collar. Don't expect Sam to take the work seriously if you don't. Like I said, it must be your mental decision first. If you have determined that you only want to use a head halter and cookies and don't intend to impress upon him that he has responsibility, then you are exactly where that leads. As far as treats go, after an initial introduction to a new exercise, they should be a reward for good performance, not a lure. A lure puts the dog in control, not the handler. (dog can choose to ignore the lure if he wants with no consequences).

[MrsBoats]

I really do think Sam does understand the exercises. He will do a heel at the park with no treats if we are walking along. But if I try out in the back yard....mope, mope, mope, plod, plod, plod. Today after Mr. Boats came home he asked Sam to "Down" and had a cookie when he asked. Sam went down but grumbled as he did it. Mr. Boats looked at me with his eyes the size of dinner plates and asked me if I had heard that. Hmmmmm....I saw that as "That's one more red flag that Sam is getting an attitude. I am going to switch to a prong collar and start to give corrections when he doesn't listen, cops an attitude, or is apathetic. Can I also correct with the same magnitude if his mind is on the dog that just walked in the door and not me?

He does know sit, down, stay, and come. He's learning "finish you dog" right now. I don't think he knows that. But you're right, if he doesn't do the exercise right, there's no real consequence other than do it again until you get it right. So, it a nut shell, I should make him know I am not pleased in the least when he blows me off or couldn't care less about doing obedience.

Just so you have a little bit more info, we don't have any issues about dominance with Sam...he waits at the door, no growling with food, bones or chews, gets off the furniture when we tell him or any of the tell tale signs of dominance I read on here.