Advice on how to go forward please

[Carina43]

Hi, Lori...I think an evaluator is an excellent idea. It doesn't sound like Zeke is a candidate for euthanizing...

In 1992 I found a large female GSDx wandering loose. After a couple of days trying to find an owner, a few incidents made me realise she was fear-aggressive, neurotic, weak nerved & liable to bite anyone & anything the minute she felt threatened (though she never showed any aggressiveness towards me.) I wasn't sure how best to deal with her, so I went for two one-on-one sessions with a wonderful dog/expert/trainer/shrink who worked with a large & well regarded training facility here in Denver.

I'll tell you, those two sessions saved Phoebe's life, because I was going to have her put down. She was WAY worse than your description of Zeke. What that guy told me helped me understand Phoebe's way of thinking, and we learned many tricks & tips to help her gain confidence. I still have her, and there are certain situations she will never be put in...crowds, PetsMart, NEVER around children.

But she happily & sweetly accepts strangers in the house, loves her daily walks, loves car rides, and in her younger days was a formidable mountain hiking & biking companion. Now she is the old house dog & spends much of her time sleeping on her couch. It took some work, and she is not included in every aspect of our life, but she has given us almost a decade of doggie loving, & is the sweetest girl...most of the time! :)

Good luck with Zeke & keep us posted...I'm curious to find out what the evaluator says.

[Judi W]

You will find stories both ways. The dog that was turned around and able to be a fairly good companion and the one who seriously injured someone.

This is really not something that can be advised long-distance and you need to get moving on some serious consults and professional assistance. A single consult will rarely (although sometimes) be enough to make such a determination. It needs to be evaluated as to whether the dog is responsive to training and behavior modification. You also need to evaluate your own lifestyle and honestly decide whether it will accomondate living with a dog that will need vigilent owners for the rest of its life.

[LORHEL]

Hello Carina: Thank you for replying. I do feel like the biting incident Zeke had was a "fear" bite. The person who wanted to pet him was a female cousin, at softball practice. My husband and Zeke were walking around this park on their own, having a 'good time" and stopped to lay down in grass to wait for me to get done. As we got done, and were walking up the hill to where Zeke and my husband were at, she asked if she could pet him. I was worried but he seemed to be "ok" with females. She stuck out her hand (palm up) to let him "smell" her. He was very okay with that, and licking her to death, then she turned her hand over, and went to pet him on the head, and that is when he "snapped". I have been told that patting on the head should be done only by my husband and I, as it is interpreted by dogs as a dominance issue. Maybe that is why he snapped. My husband was also very apprehensive about letting a stranger pet him, I don't know if he picked up on that, but the puzzle, is why was he okay at one point, then not at the other. Luckily she only had the skin broken, because my husband is always trying to be one step ahead of Zeke, and she was okay. But if he would have gotten ahold of her hand, he probably would have ruined it. I was so upset that day, but I can't help wonder if we contributed to it, and when she turned her hand over, so I don't know how much of it is my fault for letting her pet him in the first place, and how much of it is his fault. Thanks.

[LORHEL]

Judi: We are more than willing to devote as much time as possible with Zeke, if someone would feel he is within being helped. My problem is getting someone to do this. I had a trainer (not an expert) at the fairgrounds tell me to put him down, once she heard of the bite incident.
However, I spoke to her between classes, and she really did not get a chance to get the whole picture. She had her own rott there with her, but I was disappointed that she would not be able to conduct a private session with him, due to what she said was "assumption of risk". (I am sure you know what that means, so I won't ramble on).
After that, I spoke to the doctor on the phone, and yesterday I went to Petsmart, not for this reason but to get the gentle halter. While I was there, I actually ran into the person who does the training there. They can't take anyone like Zeke who has broken the skin, BUT she really wanted to help me and gave me the number of someone who might be able to evaluate him. She is a behavioralist at one of the animal hospitals very close to our house, and I am waiting on her to get back with me. I left my info yesterday for her. I also have spoken to another rep at the fairgrounds, who is trying to get another woman who may be able to meet us and evaluate him, but I have not heard back in several days, and am worried, she may not work out. I want to get started ASAP on something, but it is just not happening that way. We have been taking him on walks regularly, rides in parking lots (he does not bark at passerby) trying to keep him socialized as much as possible.

I was disappointed to hear the trainer at Petsmart say Zeke will probably never be able to be in a "regular" training class.

I don't want to paint a bad picture of Zeke, but we have a serious decision on our hands.
Any other comments or if ANYONE KNOWS SOMEONE IN THE FORT WAYNE OR NORTHERN INDIANA AREA who is a behavioral expert, etc. please let me know!
Thanks.

[Carina43]

Judi is probably right... It can go both ways! I always have to be vigilant about Phoebe...she has one recorded bite incident, relatively minor & right after I got her. She was in the front yard with me & a neighbor's friend was in his driveway & she just charged him & attacked with no provocation that I could see. The first time I took her on a hike she just wanted to lunge at everybody who came close. She hurled herself at the car window snarling & barking everytime someone walked by, or someone in an adjacent car made eye contact. She shook & growled when around any sort of crowd. She became hysterical during storms, and totally freaked if I left the house. I mean, she was BAD...a whole mess of issues. (Reading this, I wonder why I bothered with her!)

So...though she is a wonderful dog loved by all our friends, I have been vigilant with her. One thing the evaluator told me was that I would never really be able to trust her...and I never have. If friends come over with children, she is in the back yard, period. If we have a big party, she is seperated because it makes her anxious. She is never ever off leash, she is muzzled at the vet, she is not left in the car for an instant with the windows down...I realise that in certain situations, she is unstable & will bite. I know her enough to recognise those times, and I just take no chances with her. She was about 2-3 years old when I found her, & lord knows what her early years were like.

She's worth it though! :)

[LORHEL]

Carina: Thanks for giving me some hope. Zeke is no way that bad! Bravo to you for being so patient with her, and sticking with.
;) Zeke is not the type to just lunge at someone, and he does not have separation anxiety, never has. He did bark at people earlier when I would go through a drive thru, (he would be in the back part of the Jeep) a few times like you described, but we have worked on this with him, and he is much more controlled. The thing with him is he ALWAYS will need time to get accustomed to new people, they will never be able to approach him until he is comfortable.

Have you used a muzzle, if so, how do you feel about it? Yes/no?

Do you think it would be good or bad for us to take Zeke to our campground. Be assured: we would Only allow him to be leashed at all times of course, with us, on our own lot. I really don't want to leave him out of the picture, especially if he were around the family up there on our lot, he might feel more comfortable, and with alot of practice, maybe, he could even go for a walk (long term goal). What do you think. Thanks for your time, I appreciate it! :)

[Carina43]

Hmm..The only time I use the muzzle is when she's at the vet. She hates it, but rather that than her biting! I don't have any experience other than that...perhaps some of the more experienced dog folks here do. I would guess if you could get Zeke used to one it could be used for fun things like walks on crowded trails...Phoebe only associates it with the scary vet visits. Luckily she only goes once a year for shots & check-ups, so it's not a big issue.

Heck, I'd take Zeke camping! My first Rott was very hard & aloof with strangers. He was not aggressive, he just did not like people coming right up & petting him if he didn't know them. (He's just move away, usually placing himself between me & the new person.)

[Judi W]

Zeke sounds as though he cannot tolerate someone too close in his space. As long as you can be sure he is not put in a position like that, take him. Whether the muzzle bothers him or not, that is to be preferred to someone being bitten, so I would vote for the muzzle unless and until such time as you (I'm including Zeke) make a lot of progress in his tolerance. This is called ADR (an active defense reflex). Carina has given you a picture of the responsibility involved in owning a dog that is quick to use its teeth when stressed. That is where you all must evaluate yourselves and your lifestyle. I hope you get some assistance soon and we all wish you well.

[Paxx]

I am going to the move this to the Training Forum now, as you are looking for a Trainer.

[Ethár]

Dear LORHEL...

I think that you shall approach another point of view on this matter. I will here give you MY point of view and then you can evaluate if you would like to think like this:

When we get a dog, child, au-pair or anything else living into our life we can NEVER be 100% shure on anything.

We can prevent things from happening and take precautions as far as our life experience allows us.

This is the only things we can do - but if we do that AS GOOD AS WE CAN, noone can come to us and say "you didn't do your best" right?!!

We KNOW that rottweilers have a "bad reputation" because of sloppy owners (yes, they do exist) - but there are also good owners that devote much time and caring... these will media never write about though.

If you have leash on your dog there will most certainly be no trouble.
My Ambrosius has not (thank God) bitten any other dog BUT I am sure that he COULD do it if the "right situation" would come up.... this goes for many dogs.
I live in a city and have ALWAYS Abbe on leash JUST TO PREVENT that anything could happen --- but I also EVERY DAY take him in my car and drive to various large forests where I let him run unleashed.

Of course I won't let him out of my sight - he moves with me in a few metres only. This we have done since he arrived into my life and it works just fine.

A large rottweiler NEEDS to walk and sniff for at least 1½ hour every day and why not combine it with places you know there is not many other dogs - even if you have to go by car for a little while it is worth it.
1. I will have nice nature experiences and exercise
2. My dog is happy and content

I think you are doing a big problem of something that really is no problem. No one can trust their dog 100% in obedience.

Some have 95%, some only 25% -- its up to you to decide on how much you can trust your dog, and then arrange his life situation out of that.

I WILL STRONGLY WARN YOU for letting those male dogs run along the fence.... they will build up aggressiveness towards each other and IF THEY SOME DAY meet there can be a terrible confrontation.
There is no need really for your dog to meet with other dogs. YOU and your family is your dogs pack and that should be enough. Don't give your dog "human needs" because they do not have it!!!!

Human need: We need to say hello and be friendly with everyone.

Dogs need: Their pack. It is very unatural for wild dogs and wolves to interfere with anyone outside their own pack!!!

You have to be aware that your life with your dog will need a little more effort from you, but if you are willing to do it there will be no problems.

Okey - accidents CAN happen, nothing is certain but you can prevent many things.

or...

P.S. No need to put him to sleep when you maybe can give him to someone with experience?

I wish you good luck!
Ethár and Ambrosius

[LORHEL]

Ethar: Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all points of view. We are going to devote as much time as need be for Zeke, since there are no children and won't be in our picture (unless a miracle) It is just that we hadn't been devoting the "right time" all the time, in socialization especially. I appreciate the comment about the dogs running the fence. How do I stop him while he is in that "mode" though. I have tried getting in front of him, while he is going back and forth, but usually one dog either Zeke or the neighbor dog starts it. It is not both dogs going at it at the same time, one provokes the other. The owner and I are very friendly, so we always "break them up" and it doesn't last long. It often seems like a macho (no offense guys) thing. At this point, I am not too worried, as I am concentrating on the other issues. But thank you!! I will keep this in mind too.
Lori

[Carina43]

A funny story I read once by Peter Lorenz (one of the first animal behaviourists.) He had several dogs, and one would do this fence-running thing with the neighbor dog. One night the fence blew down. the dogs started their early morning running & snarling, only to find a big piece of fence missing so they were for the first time face to face. Both dogs stopped, confused. Then they continued the rushing along the fence behaviour, only stopping just short of where the fence was broken & pretending it wasn't there.

IIRC, his conclusion was the dogs enjoyed the macho game and wanted to keep it as such! Unless the barking is really annoying, I wouldn't let it bother you...

I think Ethar has a good point ...if Zeke's only problem is he doesn't tolerate strangers really well, it is only a problem if you decide it is...Rottweilers are not Golden Retrievers, after all!

[LORHEL]

I would appreciate anyone's comments please!
I posted a few weeks back (and a couple of other times too) about our now one year old male boy, who has had some problems not only with a jerk neighbor, but he did have one incident where he attempted to bite someone.
My husband and I are in the process of getting someone qualified to evaluate him at this point. I am committed to finding someone who can give us an experts opinion, not just a trainer. I don't want to have to put him down unless it is in the best interest. The problem is I need someone's advice for this.. I have spoken to the DVM expert over the telephone, which I explained in an earlier post, who had given us some suggestions, but at this point, I need to know how to go on with the problem we are having.
I will give a very brief synopsis of Zeke our now 1 year old male.
In general, most of the time, there are no major problems with him. He is good around our two cats, my niece, us, relatives (my mom stayed with him for 5 days while we were on vacation, and not ONE problem with him. He listened to her etc. no problems.)

He gets along with the next door dogs, except he and the other male like to run up and down the fence with each other, taking turns on who the "boss" is, sassing each other, but I don't consider this a big problem at this point. He is not agressive on walks, when other dogs bark at him, he basically whines, because he thinks they want to play.
When I tell him "none of our business" which is what we tell him for most things we want him to ignore, it works.

The problem is: We will never be able to completely trust him, due to the biting incident. I don't want to say Zeke is a vicious dog because I don't believe he is, but he does have the attitude from time to time and could be unpredictable at that point. I am not sure if this is a weak nerve, parents are kennel-agressive to a point--his mom is good around people and I see her often but the father does have some issues that he is very seldom around other people. I have been around him when he was let out, and he did not bother me, and played with Zeke, very tolerant of Zeke. The mother is very possessive of her food, toys, as is father. Zeke is not this way at all, except for bones. I can take his food dish any time, feed him by hand he is so lazy! We did have the one bad incident in puppy class, where the trainer did the dominance hold on him, and from that point on for a while he was very apprehensive towards male strangers, not people he knew, but strangers. He has gotten better at this, and I don't know how much of an issue it is at this point. When he was a puppy, the trainer told us we would HAVE to clip his toenails, and suggested one person hold him down, and the other clip, which we were hesitant to do, but did get accomplished. That night was very upsetting for us, (this was back in October) as it was like exercising a demon! He was thrashing and making the most god-awful noises. We did get it done, and to this day, I can clip his nails, with muzzle on, and him on his side. If he pulls back his paw, I will keep doing it. I have found with him, that he IS A BLUFFER. Especially with me, since I am not the alpha. I am not afraid to get an object out of his mouth if need be. I don't know if I am interpreting the bluffs correctly, but he has not tried to bite me.

My husband and I did socialize zeke with his puppy class, visits to relatives, and several parties at our house, etc. when he was a puppy. He enjoyed people and the attention, but after the attempted bite, my husband has been very worried about bringing him to any parks, or new people etc.

I guess what I am asking is what is the criteria for a dog that needs to be put down.
I don't want to do this unless it is absolutely necessary, and I am prepared if need be, but I don't know what to do at this point. We would like to begin taking him up to our lake/campground. WE DID get the gentle harness for him, and are working on that with him.
I also want to get people's opinion on the muzzle. Due to the background I have given you on him, do you think this could make the situation worse. Also, up to this point, he has been using a prong collar. I have been told by several people, that in his situation, it may be also making it worse. I mostly use it on walks. He goes right over to the wall where it hangs when he knows it is time for a walk, and doesn't really seem bothered by it, but I don't know.

I again want to thank everyone for their time, and I have two calls in to people in our area here to see if they will evaluate him. I don't think the one person is going to do it, as it has been several days already. At this point, I am considering calling the "expert" actual doctor in Indianapolis, about 1 1/2 hours from us to see if he will do this for us. I don't think that would be a problem.

Thanks again. lori jeff and Zeke