Training for the last 2% (really long)

[Bear'sDad]

My "Bear" is a wonderful Rottweiler, about 98% "perfect" (IMHO ;) ). I've read through a lot of the posts here in the training forum, but I've still got some questions for those of you folks willing to impart advice.

Background: Bear was surrendered at 10 months old by th parents of the girl who bought him as a pup (in high school). She went to college, and the parents "coudn't handle" him, so he was surrendered to the local Humane Society. They sent him to the Wisconsin Rottweiler Rescue (Joan is an angel).

Through a strange series of events, my wife and I went to WRR looking for a female puppy. We looked at lots of dogs, but Bear stole our hearts (he rolled over on his back in the crate when we first set eyes on him!). He was motivated by praise, beautiful to look at (aren't they all), and as sweet as any dog I've ever met. We took the 1 year old boy into his new "forever" home just before Thanksgiving 1999.

Bear was probably a back-yard-bred dog, and shows some signs of inbreeding. He had extra digits (dewclaws the size of your thumb, since removed) on his hind legs, and his temperment does not fit the breed standard (no aloofness with other dogs, not wary of strangers at all, etc). We wanted a rot as a PET, and that's what we got (no flame intended, but you folks who might want to give a lecture on how you can only train a "proper" rot that's been tested for drive, etc. can stop reading now. The boy was RESCUED).

I'm self-employed and am pretty much home constantly from Thanksgiving to Christmas (my work is almost seasonal), so I spent the next month training and having fun with Bear. He learned everything from basic obedience to some very cool tricks quickly, and we had only one problem - at the beginning.

Within the first month, Bear didn't want to accept my wife as Alpha (as far as I can tell), and I had her do the evil, dreaded, roll. I know, I know, it's dangerous, stupid and very, very bad - but it worked.

That situation over, we immediately socialized him with lots of other kids (fur and human) and were extremely pleased with the results. Bear went from "That Evil Rock-Wilder Dog" to the neighborhood's darling puppy (just perceptions, mind you) by Christmas.

Fast forward to today. Bear's gone through some adventures (socializing with the neighborhood skunk), was almost "killed with kindness" by his owner (I basically fed him 'till he stopped eating - he was 40lbs overweight), and is now a svelte 75-80lbs (thanks to Joan's diet tips), happy, healthy, active, and 98% behaved.

Now to that last 2%: Over the last few weeks, Bear has gotten a disobedient streak. He KNOWS he's disobeying (he'll actually look at me after I give a command, and then go off and do whatever it was I was telling him not to, or just turn his back and not comply). He's "tested" us before, but never like this.

We are consistant with our corrections (1st offence; a hearty "AAT!" 2nd; "NO!" & "the look", 3rd; a voluntary roll & a "time out"). We rarely have to say anything more than "NO!", and I've described the roll as "voluntary" because it involves no physical contact (Bear is given the command "Over", and he rolls on his back in a submissive posture). More often than not, he does this without a command when we say "NO!", and yet we get to the "time out" point again and again (at least once a day).

These situations seem to center around other animals. Whether they're dogs, cats, squirrels, rabbits, whatever. Bear just will NOT listen when there are other animals present. It has gotten to the point where my wife or I have to physically drag the dog back inside (or hold him back from slamming through the screen door) to enforce the timeout.

I am absolutely positive he knows who the Alpha is. He waits for us to go through doors (unless his buddy "Wags" is outside), waits for his food, isn't possesive of toys or treats (even with other dogs), he "grooms" both my wife and I (gotta love a rot's kisses!), behaves and complies with commands (with the above exceptions) and he is never, ever, been agressive.

I haven't taken him to formal obedience class, and I am willing to admit that was a mistake. It seems as though he "forgets" everything when distracted by other animals. I absolutely love "my" boy, and hate having to force him to comply (again, he's motivated by praise).

We have a small yard that is not fenced, and he knows its boundaries. This doen't happen when we're walking him on a leash, but he's had the last 1.5 years of freedom in the yard, and he can't play with the neighbor's dogs if I'm holding him.

I want to get Bear to the point that he would breeze through a CGC test, but I shudder to think what would happen to everything I've taught him when having to behave with other dogs in close quarters.

O.K. experts, what did I do wrong, and how can I train for that last 2%?

[spiritkdb]

Well Bear's Dad, I'm no expert but sounds like you need to set him up in some "win-win" desensitization program. Put him in a controlled (on leash) situation where he will find listening to you and ignoring the other animal more rewarding than not listening to you. Have someone bring a pet by while Bear is on leash and work with him like that (with other pet performing some real distractions).

I have horses, I have a dog with herding instincts (rottie). ;-) Bad combination? You bet, it could be. My girl has learned and is still learning the consequences are not worth the behavior. Enter rolled up bath towel secured with 2 rubberbands and the verbal correction "no!". You can also used empty plastic water bottles (the small kind you buy for yourself) or fill them with some paper clips to make some noise.

Chelsea learned that No was followed with one of the aforementioned objects flying at her from afar. Boy does she not like those surprises! So she figures that "No" is going to be followed by something gawdawful and she stops what she is doing. Including chasing big horses with steel shoes. I always give her a behavior command first. "Leave It" before I resort to "No" She learned "leave it" as a puppy.

He won't breeze thru the CGC test if he can't ignore another dog...(or not get excited) Maybe this would be a good time to enroll in an obedience class. It is a wonderful sight to see dogs lying side by side totally focused on their owners during a 3 min down stay. Betcha you would have fun! Sounds like you have done a really GREAT job with Bear thus far. Congratulations on that 98%!!!!

[Judi W]

Naw, he's just doing exactly what you've taught him. I would guess that maybe you have taught him that he gets 3 chances! ;) In otherwords, it doesn't get physical until he's had his (1st offence; a hearty "AAT!" 2nd; "NO!" & "the look", 3rd; a voluntary roll & a "time out)

Sounds like a well-trained boy. Naw, don't be mad at him, you just need to change your order a bit. If my tone of voice says I mean it and the dog ignores me, I go straight out, take a hold of that dog, and explain that I am not very happy. (something they usually try to avoid in the future)

[Bear'sDad]

Thank you for the compliment, Kathy, but Bear was very easy to work with to get this far. :)

Bear's already pretty good when on leash, but these problems only happen when we're in (or about to go into) the yard we share with our neighbors.

The corrections I listed are given after he's ignored a command. WHEN he's actually focused on me, the neighbor's dogs and cats can run circles around us and he won't budge from a down/stay. I think my issue is that his focus isn't consistantly on myself, or my wife.

I think may just have to break down and go for the classes, but I've hesitated in the past for one reason: I want the dog to be obedient out love, respect, and praise from us, rather than because we're dangling a hotdog in front of his nose.

Is this unrealistic (or just my ignorance of dog training techniques)? He's actually a very well behaved dog (when compared to the others in the neighborhood), but I really want his best, and all the time.

Judi:

That does make sense, but the wife and I are already a little worried that we're getting too physical dragging him back for his timeouts (we're not exactly gentle). I know he can handle it, but I just want him to do what I say the FIRST time <whine>.

Again, I'd like his motivation to come from respect as opposed to fear.

Thanks for the replies!

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Bear'sDad ]

[Judi W]

He's a remarkably good dog, but actually I was quite serious about him doing what he's been taught. My one dog training rule is "don't lie to the dog". If you want him to pay better attention even when he's distracted, then you need to put a lead or long line on him, put him in those situations and then give him a pop on the lead. That way he will learn. Obedience is a one command type of thing. We all also have "informal" instructions to the dogs using other than command words and those instructions leave more wiggle room for the dog's compliance.

If formal training meant the dogs only obeyed with a treat in front of their noses none of us would have any titles. No treats or toys in the ring for sure. Although often that is used in the teaching phase, it is not the end product. You might want to rethink training classes which gives you a coach to help you along and gives the dog experience responding in varied situations outside their home yard.

[spiritkdb]

Bear's Dad, you say you are self employed. Do you work for free? Or do you just work for love and respect? no? Didn't think so, so why should Bear? Positive reinforcement can go a long way in establishing a behavior. (Just like a paycheck!! ;-) )

Our dogs work out of love and respect and some yummy treats too! Food is a great motivator, some dogs like toys instead. Don't you want to correct Bear's behavior? Try the professional route. Betcha you can get a lot done with positive training and a no means no attitude. Good luck and keep us posted!

[Judi W]

I know what you are thinking, however, really, from the dog's perspective, it is kinder for him to understand what you mean. It is difficult for him to please you if most of the time the words mean he can putter around a bit and sometimes the words mean he must come or have you irritated with him so he has to offer you his belly by way of appology. As a dog trainer, I will say that nagging tends to leave dogs in doubt as to what indeed is expected. They do want to please, but unclear signals leave them not sure of the importance of things. Unfortunately, if you wait until you've spoken to him several times, by then you are aggravated, then that dragging thing does become unpleasant. A few training sessions with that (formal stuff) and some pops of the leash are not nearly as discouraging to the dog as being drug and time outs. I've never understood the concept of time out for a dog anyway. Are they thought to consider their behavior and connect it with being put up someplace? I don't believe dogs live a contemplative life, but rather a here and now life.

[Bear'sDad]

Thank you both for the replies. I'm going to get us involved in formal obedience training as soon as I can find a suitable class.

We were at Rottstock yesterday, and Bear did fairly well. With the other dogs around, he suddeny became VERY focused when I had food (and I used it to my advantage).

Judi, as far as "timeouts" go, we use it as an opportunity to separate Bear from the situation that is causing distraction, and take that time to get him to do something for us (obeying commands, doing tricks) followed with a lot of praise when he complies. Its more of a re-direction of his attention than punishment for being distracted (and I agree that furkids are not contemplative).

[Judi W]

Phew, I'm relieved. Truth is some people really do use the child=rearing type of time out on their dogs and believe the dog is reflecting, (just so you don't think I'm a dolt).

Actually one technique that can be done when one has multiple dogs, is to put the one that's been being less than enthusiastic up for a period of time and work another dog where it can watch while giving the reluctant one the cold shoulder. It's amazing how they suddenly start shouting "hey I can do that, I can do that" ;) They do thrive on attention and sometimes need to be reminded that the attention is earned.

[BostonRott]

Bear's Dad,

Two books that you might really enjoy, and which will further your understanding of training and motivations:

Don't Shoot the Dog
How Dogs Learn

The second one is an EXCELLENT "plain English" explanation of both general behaviour (not "dogs do this" or "here's how to train a sit, but general behaviour) and also learning theory. It's based on the classic studies and behaviourists, but very nicely written.

I think you'll enjoy them, and I know they helped me a lot. Dogwise carries them, if you can't find them elsewhere. :)