Pinch Collars

[Jamie & Odin]

I've had good results with the halti, although it did take some getting used to on Odin's part. However, I think my problem is solved, due to the fact that the only kind of collar allowed on therapy dogs is a flat collar. That is because any of the other types can cause an injury to the person that the dog is providing therapy to if a finger or hand is under the collar and it is tightened.I am considering therapy work with Odin, and feel that if we will have to use the flat collar, that is what he should be trained with. So, I will give up my halti, forget about the prong, choke and everything else, and use a flat collar!

[Judi W]

Please be aware that although the dogs must work on a flat collar, that doesn't mean they all got to that level of training without using a training collar and/or pinch. They do however, all need to be trained to work from the neck, not being pulled around by the nose. In obedience competition after the Novice level the dogs work without a leash, but they don't reach that level by being trained without leash and collar. Training collars of whatever kind are just that - for training. If you can train your dog to obey commands first time, not to pull on the leash and so forth on a flat collar, that is wonderful. If not, then don't decide ahead of time what tools you will or won't use. Decide that you will have a trained dog and use whatever tools are necessary to reach that goal.

[WorkinDogz]

Absolutely, Judi.

Jamie,

Don't cut your nose off despite your face. Training a dog to the level necessary for Therapy Dog Certification takes much time and training. Expect the dog to need a correction at one time or another. (if yours never does...post a picture daily; because you have the only one on the planet that doesn't! ;) )

It's MHO that training should be geared around the individual dog...not the owner...not the Instructor....and should proceed in a manner that is most beneficial to the dog. A manner that will allow the Instructor and the owner to work together and get the most out of the dog...making it possible for him to be all that he can be. Nothing more/nothing less.

The dog decides what he needs/doesn't need in the way of training tools......we, as their trainers, have a responsiblity to provide it.

[Burnsway]

Well although I was always hesitant to use a prong I now have no choice........Psyche believe it or not loves it. We have 3 leashes and 4 different collars I use. She picks out which one when we go to the closet. We use one for free walk...one for training her the new stuff and hard work and 2 extra. Every time we go to closet she grabs the prong! She knows when I use prong it is for training. She knows we work and are not just going out to stretch our legs. I have been chastized by family members including my own hubby for useing it...but he now sees the difference. It's a training tool and Psyche just loves to be trained. She lives for it. Used correctly I believe it is one of the best tools out there.........Just my opinion.....;)

[ladawn]

Daisy and I started puppy k last week and the instructor does not allow prongs or chokes in her class. She is not opposed to them, however, she explained that it has been her experience that most people do not know how to use them properly. We are in puppy kindergarten and she definitely feels like they are not an appropriate training tool for puppies. I have a choke collar for Daisy but I never use it. I have a friend who is helping me to train Daisy (in addition to the class) and she has trained dogs for years and knows how to use it. I don't use it when she isn't there because I know I don't know how to use it and even though she has shown me, I don't feel comfortable or confident and therefore I don't use it.

[damp]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz

It's MHO that training should be geared around the individual dog...not the owner...not the Instructor....and should proceed in a manner that is most beneficial to the dog. A manner that will allow the Instructor and the owner to work together and get the most out of the dog...making it possible for him to be all that he can be. Nothing more/nothing less.

The dog decides what he needs/doesn't need in the way of training tools......we, as their trainers, have a responsiblity to provide it.

YES!!!

Dogs are different...a method of training can be wrong and harmful for one dog and on the other hand, it can works miracles for another dog.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
The mark of a good trainer; a well rounded and one able to work with the owners of ANY DOG placed in front of them is their ability to be more than a "one-method" trainer.

A good trainer has a huge bag of tools and a solid knowledge of the use of those tools.

Just as it is questionable for any trainer to slap a prong collar on every dog that walks through the door.....it's equally red-flag raising for any quality trainer who knows their "stuff" to say "I forbid the use of" any training tool that will prove to be and has proven to be a very effective one.

The trainers you can learn the most from and your dog has the best chance of having the solid foundation layed from...is the trainer who is willing and able to modify their chosen method of training to suit the individual dogs they are working with.

Many trainers don't "like" some of the tools of the trade...but the GOOD ONES will be able to explain their use and WHEN they are are effective...and will USE THEM when needed and when the dog will benefit from them.

To say "prong collars are outlawed in this class" not only makes me roll my eyes but also makes me leary of that trainers limitations as an Instructor.

I agree with the above reply.

I will also add that when trainers are talking about training a dog for any person we are talking about "conditioning a learned responce" which means we are training the dog to give a consistant, clear responce, everytime to a given trigger (command) or stimulation. A good trainer will use what ever equipment is needed to gain this responce from the dog, no matter what equipment the dog is too be working on later. The equipment what ever it is should be used to teach the dog what is expected of it so that it can give such responce. Once the dog has truly learnt what is expected of it then equipment is no longer necessary as the dog will give the responce to matter what. Many examples of this level of training exist, non better than the off lead recall. So help yourself and use what is necessary to gain this responce. It will give you are far greater chance of doing the theropy work with your dog.

Mick.

P.S. For the record if a dog needs to work in the same piece of equipment it's whole life then it is because the training has be incomplete or incorrect, not that the equipment is incorrect.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz


It's MHO that training should be geared around the individual dog...not the owner...not the Instructor....and should proceed in a manner that is most beneficial to the dog. A manner that will allow the Instructor and the owner to work together and get the most out of the dog...making it possible for him to be all that he can be. Nothing more/nothing less.

The dog decides what he needs/doesn't need in the way of training tools......we, as their trainers, have a responsiblity to provide it.

Whilst I agree with this to some extent I do think that the owner of the dog must factor into the choice of equipment that is to be used as it is in the end the owner that will use the equipment and shape the dog. Different equipment is needed for different owners due to many factor (physical strength, idiology, co-ordination etc etc etc). For an experienced dog handler or trainer I agree that we use what will achieve the best results from the dog, but if the handler is a novice the equipment used must take this into account.

Mick.

[rottmommie]

i have a friend that was fired from a training facility because she wanted to intordue the prong collar/buckle collar switch, which requires the use of both and gradually weaning fromthe prong....IE teaching the dog with the prong, and then during the course of training swtiching to the buckle, (without the dog really knowing this).......
I do not understand why they would not agree to allow her to teach this, esp if the dog was responding to this and able to use the buckle collar only.
I guess they figured that once necessary for a dog to have the prong, you could never go back???

[codglvr]

While our trainer in general uses a GL for leash work in the beginning, all dogs are taken to a buckle collar when ready. Although she does not like to have to use prong, one particular dog in our classes has been relegated to it becuase she simply does not respond to other methods. There have been some great comments on this thread. Thanks guys, I always learn so much from you all!

[pandora's daddy]

Both of our girls have prong collars. Pandora (19 months) started on the choke but wasn't responding well in puppy-k, so we switched and she loved it. When we rescued Sedona, we tried Pandora's choke on her for a walk. She popped my shoulder out of its socket, (I have previously dislocated it so it is easier to reinjure.) The next day she got a prong. Now they both love their prongs. They would rather go on a training walk than a regular walk, even if they have already gone on a training walk. I plan on getting into therapy with Pandora and Search and Rescue with Sedona, but I will not wean them from their prong collars until all the training is complete.

[bgdawgrr]

Originally posted by Burnsway
Well although I was always hesitant to use a prong I now have no choice........Psyche believe it or not loves it. We have 3 leashes and 4 different collars I use. She picks out which one when we go to the closet. We use one for free walk...one for training her the new stuff and hard work and 2 extra. Every time we go to closet she grabs the prong!

LOL I thought my pup was the only one. I used the prong to stop her from pulling and for attention training when walking on the 15' line. Worked in two sessions. Now she loves the pinch collar. I take it off her at night (lay it on the floor or back on the rail on the back steps) and she will bring it to me when I get out of the shower in the morning. eek: She wants it on instead of her flat collar!?!?! Cracks me up. :p

[pogosladyfriend]

i put my dogs prong collar around my neck today and gave it a really good tug, and then a more gentle one. It suprised me much more than it hurt, it pinches put not too badly. the gentle tug seemed to have just about the same effect as the strong one, the strong tug just suprised me more. I cant imagine for a second that using a prong collar is bad because it doesnt take much more than a very small tug to get the dogs attention. I have put a choke chain around my neck and tugged and i barely felt a thing except mild choking, and I would rather be pinched than choked anyday! It seems that it is a lot easier to use a choke chain incorrectly than a prong collar. I have accidently put my dogs choke chain on backwards and it didnt loosen like it was supposed to, I havent noticed a problem like that with the pincher. My dogs respond a lot better with a prong collar anyway.

[FREEHEART111]

Personally, I hate choke and pinch collars. But, I have a very submissive puppy. She seems to only want to make me happy:)
I enrolled her in puppy training, and I told the trainer that I was against using them. I just wanted to learn how to make her listen when I called her to come back. (She would get in the neighbors yard and when I called her, she forgot her name) Isis and I attended 5 classes and dropped out. He would pull on her leash and try to get her to do things (sit, lay down, etc.) She absolutely refused! I couldn't stand seeing him torture her like that I would work with her at home and she would follow the commands perfectly. Once we got to class, she would just keep looking at me like "help mommy" who is this guy? I would leave there with knots in my stomach. He even commented that he could see it bothered me, but was insisting that it was necessary.

I have never had any problem with Isis, but then she started developing a problem after class. One day she was chewing on the wall in the house. (Everybody laughs at me when I say this, but I think it was her nerves) I reprimanded her for it and never took her back to class, and she has never done anything like that again. She is a house dog, and is home more than I am. I never come home and find anything chewed up or broken. She just has her toys all over the house.

My boyfriend first broke her of going into the neighbors yard. One day before I got home for work, I guess she ran over there and he whipped her. (Something, that wouldn't have happened if I were around). Anyhow, I don't know how bad it was (not too bad I imagine), but it worked. She doesn't go out of her yard anymore.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Freeheart 111, you did the right thing by taking your little girl out of that class, the trainer sounds like a real hard a$$. Our Maggie is a very soft Rottie too and requires gentle handling and never any rough stuff! I use gentle, positive reinforcement with Maggie and she is a willing participant in this co-operative effort I call training without pain. Follow your instincts with her and you will be just fine and you and your dog will always be 'best friends".