Rottie trying to attack other dogs

[06Hoss]

Hi, I am new to the forum and wanted to ask a question about my Rottie's behavior around other dogs (she usually goes into vicious attack mode within seconds of sniffing the other dog). Sorry for the length of this post, but I figured the more info the better.
First let me give you a little background on both me and my dog.
I am in my 40s and have been around dogs most of my life and owned a couple of German Shepards so I have no problem being calm and assertive and being the alpha around strong willed dogs. This is my first Rottie however.
Trinity is a full blooded, 80lb, female, spayed Rottweiler. She was a private rescue dog that I have had for a little over a year...she will be four years old this April. She is smart, confident, beautiful, mostly obedient and usually a very calm and loving dog. She was house trained when I got her and will do every thing well except heel and leave it (I haven't really worked on those two). I think that something happened to affect her behavior when she was with the previous owners as I was told that they used to keep her locked up in the basement since they had two smaller dogs that used to attack Trinity (yes the little dogs went after the Rottie)...so I think that may be why she has problems with other dogs. The previous owners were a young couple (early 20s) and wanted to give her away since they had to keep her locked up in the basement and they had a child on the way. I believe they loved her as the girl cryed when she left her with me, but I think they handled the situation badly.
OK, that's the background. Fast forward...When I got Trinity we started walking a mile every day (which she absolutely loved), but I noticed that while she would walk good on a loose leash the majority of the time no problem, if she met up with another dog, she usually would try to tear it's head off and she was very hard to pull back out of that situation. She will also try to go after loud cars or trucks or kids on bikes or skateboards...I realize that these moving objects may trigger her prey behavior, but I never had my GSDs go this nuts over moving objects...and if you've ever had a GSD they are on full alert 100% while the Rottie seems calmer. When I got Trinity, she had a regular harness which was a joke as far as control goes.
I worked my way up...went to a Sporn harness which helped a little, went to a standard choker (like I had with the GSDs), tried a shock collar (another joke)...she would keep pulling and snarling through the shock...then finally went to a pronged collar/choker after talking to a few local Rottie owners. Each step up gave me a little more control (except the shocker). She is usually very good on her walk, obeys my commands and corrections and when she isn't good I stand my ground and let her apply the pressure on the prongs instead of me pulling on it until she gets the message, stops and looks back at me...If I need to pull due to the situation I gradually apply more pressure until she gives in. This has enabled me to gain more control over her as she realizes that she is causing the discomfort instead of me and she doesn't pull as hard when excited. She is smart and learning fast. I took her down to a friend's farm last month that has a 3 year old, 120lb full blooded Rottie female (Heidi)...bit of a big girl.
Heidi came up sniffing Trinity in a friendly way, Trin sniffed back a few seconds and then promptly bit her on the nose and wanted to fight her (basically it was seriously on with a lot of snapping and snarling)...done mostly by Trinity...Heidi just looked shocked.
I could take her to a trainer, but most of the ones I've seen just around here want to teach basic commands or they hate chokers. I believe in the choker since I know how to use it properly and have seen it work well without hurting the dog. Plus everyone around here that has Rotties says the pronged choker is the way to go and is humane if you know how to use it. There is a real good trainer nearby that says he invented the bootcamp method, but I don't want to be without the dog for 2 to 4 weeks and pay $500to $1000 for this guy.
Do any of you have any suggestions about what I could do on my own to help correct this behavior? Or do I just need to bite the bullet and send her to bootcamp? Thanks in advance, Dan

[Cdn1050]

JMO, I would never send my dog away to anyone for training. I want to be there doing the training with the trainer showing me what to do. I want my dog to bond with me, listen to me, and not some stranger. Plus I want to be there to see what is going on.

Have you looked around to see if there are other dog trainers in your area? If you are unsure, have you tried contacting the Rottweiler breed club in your area to see what dog trainers they would recommend? Or even contact your local shelter and ask them who they use as their dog trainer for their shelter animals.

You do need someone experienced in dog aggression to help work with you on this issue in person.

[ajemons]

Originally Posted by 06Hoss

Or do I just need to bite the bullet and send her to bootcamp? Thanks in advance, Dan

NO, NO & No. You need training as much as she does. You need to go through this together (as a team).
I don't believe sending dogs away to be trained can work for behavioural issues like this.
Alison

[Carol Burke]

Please, please do not send her to boot camp. You have know way of knowing what some other person will be doing to your girl. Since you are getting good results with the prong collar I would continue with that. Get her into a class where you can work away from the other dogs to start, getting closer as she gets used to the situation. She will probably never like other adult dogs but at least you can desensitize her and work on her attention being on you.

[06Hoss]

I understand your reluctance with hearing the words "boot camp". But I wouldn't go as far as saying I wouldn't know what he would be doing with her.
I'll be there asking him specific questions before I decide to leave her. In that same vein you could also say never leave your dog at a kennel for two weeks when you go on vacation since you don't know what they will do to her while she's there. You have to do your research and at some point trust someone. But I do understand the fear you have for it. This guy has more than one type of program, one which includes him working with both the owner and the dog, but I think Trinity's problem is strictly a socialization issue with other dogs due to some trama from when she was younger. I believe she has to be trained around other dogs in order to relieve her problem and living with them in the pack seems like the best way to do it. But, all that said, I still have my concerns as you all do. There are a lot of dog bootcamps here in the United States, but this guy supposedly invented it...plus he's less than 20 miles away from me. I found his website again and included the link below. Please read his information with an open mind (there is also a video of him there with a Rottie, but it's just basic command training) and see what you think. If you still think bootcamp might be a bad idea, please let me know if you think one of his other programs might be the way to go.
Thanks, Dan
Ronald Pfierman Cincinnati Dog Training Bootcamp

[Noelle]

Honestly, he is full of crap to say he 'invented' boot camp for dogs. People have been sending their dogs away to be trained for decades and even centuries.

There is a difference between putting a dog in a kennel for a few weeks where the purpose is containment and supervision, and a training situation where a person is teaching and CORRECTING a dog with a purpose. There are VERY few trainers I would ever send my dogs ton no matter what they say or claim.

Now, please know that I have nothing against this guy at all. I tend to have a very open mind about many things. But this is just not a situation that can be fixed in this manner. YOU need to be the one that teaches this dog with the help of a trainer.

For this type of situation, I always recommend that owners look into the local Schutzhund clubs. These people are very comfortable dealing with aggressive and drivey dogs. They train for control. If the Training Director can't help you personally, often they will know of other trainers that can.

As an aside, where did you learn to use a prong? You are correct that they are excellent tools if used correctly, but can make things worse if used incorrectly. In SCH and other bite work training we even use them to bring a dogs drive UP in the fight; never or rarely to suppress it as you are looking to do. In a drive situation it acts like a stimulant and very often causes a dog to get more worked up. Unless that is what one wants, they are best used in low drive situations to give a lighter, but more meaningful correction, for say pulling, or not complying fast enough.

Also a steady pull is in an incorrect technique. Prongs, along with chain collars, are meant to be used with very quick, sharp jerks with a complete release of pressure. Long and steady pulls often have little to no effect and often cause the dog to resist. I am glad she is learning well so far, but as smart as she seems she would learn faster with proper corrections timed better.

Now for her behavior. Rott can often be dog aggressive ans especially same sex aggressive. It is very common and has likely been made much worse by her upbringing. She will likely never be a social dog. But she can learn tolerance and respect.

IF you are interested in me typing up a training plan, I would be happy to. It is what has worked very well for every DA foster I have worked with and all working dogs we have at our club that don't think other dogs belong on the same earth :) But the very first thing you need to stop doing is letting her anywhere near another dog for a while. She needs to learn self control around them, and will have to be near them to learn it, but she should be so far from them at first that they are little more than a blip on her radar. And most especially, she needs to NOT be meeting or sniffing any of them.

Let me know if you want me to type up a training plan for desensitization...

[kaiagirl]

Hi Noelle,

I have just finished reading your post and I too am starting to have issues with my girl around other dogs, she has always been socialised and is fine around dogs she knows but now that she is close to turning one I am finding that she is firing up around other dogs and I would like to start working on this now before it becomes a habit. I would be really interested in looking at your training plan also.

Thanks

[kaiagirl]

Oh also just to quickly tell you what I have been doing so far, when out on walks (with a halti) I take treats and when we see another dog I grab out a treat and get her to sit encouraging her attention on the treat not the other dog and give it to her as the other dog walks past. Am I doing the right thing, some times she will still react if she sees the dog before the treat and then once she focuses in the treat she will sit (extremely food orientated!!!) so in these cases I feel I am rewarding her for reacting to the other dog, but not really of what other way to go about it.

[Noelle]

Kaiagirl, that is essentially the concept of the VERY long post I am going to post after this one... What you need to change is the distance. Move further away form the other dog, even if you have to go up on someones driveway or lawn, or cross the street. Use what ever distance you need to to keep her from paying rapt attention to the other dog. casual attention is fine, but watch the intensity.

The post I am going to follow this one with deals mostly with aggressive dogs or dogs that have had many opportunities to aggress and it has become a habit and often becomes more and more serious. For a young dog that has not had opportunities to form this habit, then things will go much more quickly and smoothly... :D

[Noelle]

Please forgive any typos or spelling errors, I don't feel like re-reading this, hehehe!

The first step to desensitizing a dog to other dogs is knowing WHY they are getting worked up. Are they afraid and trying to lash out first, or are they more of bossy type that tends to be bullies. Are they excited and want to play but are frustrated, or are they grumpy and just don’t want other dogs around them and especially rude or annoying dogs that won’t leave them alone. If you have a bully, don’t desensitize with a hyper dog or another bully, use a calm easy dog. If you have a fearful dog, DON’T use bullies! If you have a grump or frustrated dog don’t use a playful goofy dog.

You also need to know what your goal is. Most dogs just need to be taught to ignore other dogs and pretend they don’t exist. For most people this is a happy place to be that makes walks pleasant for all. Many want their dogs to be social and run and play with other dogs. For those people, they need to realize that this may never happen, and they need to accept this and know that their dog can’t be that type. A handler also has to be willing to protect their dog from others, i.e. no contact. In all of the examples above, the only one that does not need to be protected is the playful but frustrated they need to learn to control their impulses. The rest really DON’T WANT to play with or be around other dogs. The bullies can’t help being bullies and will, if given the chance, revert back to bullying. The grumps that want to be left alone, just want to be with their owners and find their joy there and not with the other dogs. The fearful type are literally scared of other dogs. They may want to play, but are too scared and look at most others as bullies. These types can have their confidence brought up by MANY very positive experiences, but one bad one can push them back in to fear mode. Further, two bullies very rarely are able to play together. They may do fine with very well known dogs that “listen” to them or they respect, like a naughty kid that is well behaved when Grand Pa is there, but don’t usually do well in groups or singles of new dogs. Just remember, by letting your once aggressive, but now trained-to-behave-dog play and socialize, they will forget all about ignoring them in the future, so be wise.

Whew. Now for the training part.

The most important thing about desensitization is introducing the distraction at VERY small and easy to deal with amounts while showing them what the correct behavior is. For aggressive dog this ALWAYS needs to be done on leash. If you have a good friend that has a mostly well behaved dog and want to volunteer, then that is the best, but a local ON-LEAD park or a fenced in off leash park works well too.

At home, be sure that the dog knows how to focus on you when you ask. There are many ways to do this and it in its self is an article. But basically you need to teach the dog to make eye contact with you even when you are jumping up and down or moving your hands. Teach it in a quiet, low distraction room and slowly progress to the back yard and then the front. The eye contact needs to be for anywhere from 10 second to a minute. We have our competition dogs make eye contact for up to 15 minutes, so while it may seem daunting, it is very doable.

While you are working on this at home, if on a walk and you see another dog coming, cross the street, duck into an alley, turn around and go the way you came, anything to avoid the dogs from meeting. Being aggressive is in its self a very rewarding thing. It creates an adrenalin rush and is rewarding because the dogs gets to make the other dog react, which teaches it that being aggressive works so they will repeat it. You will have three times the work ahead for allowing it. This is what I mean by protecting your dog. If you have a grump or a fearful dog, this is often half of the battle. Don’t take them to a pet store where there will be dogs that are six feet away from the owner that is barely hanging on, don’t force them to meet your friends dog or the nice dog you meet on a walk. Just take a break from doggie encounters. It may mean changing your routine or route. It certainly means staying away from dog parks or off leash areas.

Now, figure out what make your dog the most happy in the world. It may be a SUPER tasty treat or a tennis ball, or a stuffed toy. It could even be attention from you. This reward becomes the ultimate reward that is reserved for this work while it is happening. So no tennis ball fetch, or stuffed bunny tugging for a while. If it is a piece of cheese or a slice of salami then DON’T use them for regular training. You also need to find good stuff that is not quite as good, but still worth doing what is asked for. You need to know that when a dog is intent on fighting, especially if it has been successful before, NOTHING you can give the dog will distract him until there is distance between him/her and the object of hatred. So don’t count on it or even try it (it will lose training value if it fails), just move away as quickly as possible and realize YOU screwed up and try again later.

Find out how close your dog has to be to another dog (or cat or squirrel, ‘cause this will work on any of these things) before it reacts; this is the Danger Zone. For some it is 20 feet and others it may be 100 yards! Each is different and it is up to you to figure out where that is. For our purposes here we will use 50 feet. You need to get 60 feet away from the teaser dog or park and ask for attention. When the dog gives it, REWARD and have a little party. This should be real easy, since we are outside of the Danger Zone at first, but is a way to set the dog up for success! Move 59 feet away from the evil teaser and ask for attention here. YAY!! He is such a good dog! You want to work up to about 30 seconds of attention at a distance, but it is also very important to do different lengths as well. In other words, sometimes ask for 10 or five seconds before a release/reward. Also mix it up with some other easy commands like sit or down, or even, (especially easy for pups) a hand touch. Make it fun, but keep up on the eye contact.

By the end of the 10 minute training session, you should be able to slowly work your way to the edge of the Danger Zone. The dog should be distracted by all the FUN you are having and not even notice it! Take one step inside to the DZ and ask for attention and when you get it, release/reward and end the session. IF you lose the dogs attention to the other dog, but it is just attention and not excitement and the dog respond to your command be sure to reward this time with the ultimate reward and make it a big deal like an actual game of tug or ten pieces of cheese while you rub and hug and tell your dog how great they are! Because let’s be honest, it IS a big deal for them to turn away from a stressor, and they need to be shown absolutely that the choice they made was the right one.
If the dog would not give you attention, then you need to take a step back to where it was easy and know that you went too far, too fast. Say “nope” and when in the conflict free zone, get them to do it the right way and reward them there. Stay in the easy, conflict free zone for a while yet. Be sure to end on a positive note.

The goal is, we want the dog to learn that when they see another dog, that looking to YOU is the right choice and is heavily rewarded. If one starts with corrections instead of showing the dog what to do, you run the very high risk of the dog becoming fearful (or more fearful) of doing anything and having other dogs be an even WORSE thing to be around because they mean corrections. Some dogs will learn to mask their aggression until the last second and lash out worse than before with no warning!

Over the course of this distraction training, (which could take days, weeks or months depending on the dog) you will see the DZ shrink down to half then thirds then a quarter of the original distance. Since they are not allowed to meet the dog that is so interesting, they learn there is no reason to try (for the excitable ones that are fearful) and nothing to fear (for the fearful ones, duh…) and the grumps don’t have to even deal with the annoyance of other dogs at all. The bullies often take the longest, since there’s often comes from prey and dominance (the actual personality of the dog that you are trying to change), and the frustrated ones can take a very long time too. Stick to your guns and go as slowly as your dog needs to go.

Start working on having the dog give you attention at home and in your yard while you are walking. It is easiest to start stationary with the dog at your side and then one step at a time, but even young pups can do this pretty quickly. For our purposes it does not have to be pretty, but that is up to you. For me there is nothing nicer than a dog that will heel with great attention! If your reward is something you can feed the dog while they keep moving, that is fine. And at first it helps to have the reward visible as you move, like a lure. This will need to be weaned off slowly after awhile. In SCH, it is common for people to hold tugs or balls at their left shoulder to teach it, then under their arm pit to wean and reward without moving anything other than your elbow, but the dog does not always know if it is there or not… This is just for reference…

Initially you will want to be pretty much working in a straight line towards the offender and then back up and away as the dog gets distracted. When you are working at one quarter of the original distance, start doing walking arches with the evil distraction as the apex of the arch, but at that safe distance. Since we started at 50 feet, we are now down to about 12 feet, give or take; add a large cushion, like 6 feet or so, and have that be the line for the next phase.

Start walking the dog sort of towards the dog, like you would normally do, but from a slight angle. When you start to get close, ask for attention and walk to the edge of the DZ and then angle away. For this, we pull out the ultimate reward! You don’t need focus for a long time, just as your dog starts to notice (not after they are fully distracted) and until you are back out of the DZ.

If the dog does not comply, HERE is where the dog will start getting corrections. They already know how to do this and should be comfortable working at this distance (right, ‘cause that is on you to make sure we are working in safe zones) so they are refusing to comply. Give a quick, sharp (gauged to the dogs needed level of correction, a whole ‘nuther article) correction and walk straight away from the evil one and ask again. Release/reward when you get it. We are not going to be beating the dog up over this at all, just a “Hey! Pay attention!” deal with a, “Yay! See that is what I wanted!” type of conversation with your dog. Back the DZ line up and try again. Do it again and again until the dog complies the first time. Obviously this is the line you need to work with for now. As before, SLOWLY and over time, work your way closer and closer with your dog giving you attention when they notice the other dog and you giving great rewards for doing so. The other dog or distraction soon actually becomes the cue to look to you! It becomes a game of, “If I see another dog, and I look at mom/dad, I will get a great reward!!!” If they don’t comply with your asking them for attention, they get a reminder type correction.

NOW! Start doing this with other dogs (if you were using only one dog…), or dogs you see on walks. Your DZ line needs to be moved back now, since we are working with a very different type of distraction. Walking is a PetSmart/Pets Co parking lot is a good option, as is a park or a dog friendly neighborhood. Be aware of your dogs DZ limit and go for a walk! If your dog can handle you walking in the street instead of all the way across the street, then go for it! On coming dogs or dogs behind fences are easier than dogs in the same direction because there is a shorter exposure time. If the other dog is a snarky one, then double your DZ distance, ‘cause the distraction will be much higher. Use you ultimate reward for the really tough spots that your dog sails through, and don’t be shy with luring for a while. Do whatever it takes to keep their attention on you.

If you get into a situation where you allow (yes, you) your dog to BE aggressive, then back WAY up in your training and distances until they are back to normal. It is your responsibility to know what is going on and protect your dog from feeling the need to go there.

A great help is if you have access to a very low key dog that does not care about any other dog in the world, including your own no matter what happens. When your dog is at the point that they can walk 5 feet away from the other dog without paying attention to them, then try walking side by side, 5 to 10 feet away in a calm and quiet manner. This is actually harder at first because the distraction has always been something we move away from, now the darned thing is FOLLOWING us! Use your correction and lures to keep things moving along and stay far enough apart that your dog is comfortable. As you are walking, slowly close the gap, with the other dog’s handler between the dogs and your dog looking up and away from it to look at you.

From here you should see how to progress as you see fit.

Double Whew!

Any question? :D

[kaiagirl]

Thanks Noelle, I am going to have a good read of this tonight (at work at the mo) and starting working on it this weekend.

[06Hoss]

Thanks for the advice Noelle. As far as typing up a training plan I would love it if it would not be too much trouble, but I really would rather see a professional than do it all on my own (but your ideas would also help). Trinity has been staying away from other dogs for the past fee months due to the winter weather (we haven't been going on our daily walks). It's not alway same sex dogs that she goes after...it's basically everything but puppies and for some reason some Labs.
It's almost like if she sees anything but a submissive signal from them, then she goes after them.
As far as the local Schutzhund club goes, then may be able to recommend a good trainer for aggressive dogs, but I don't think they will be able to help me with a socialization issue since they train basic commands and attack dog commands. They aren't the type of SC that works the herding exercises...it's almost all Police GSDs. But I will give them a call. As far as the bootcamp guy goes, did you look at the website? He has other programs besides bootcamp and that's what I wanted advice on if everyone thought bootcamp wasn't the best idea. He has programs where I would go to him with Trinity where she could be around other dogs. Bootcamp isn't the only thing he does.
Thanks, Dan

[annie]

Dan,
if you are still unsured after reading the Noelle explanation on how to work this type of problem , better get someone to help you .

And Noelle, congratulations, excellent text !

[Noelle]

Originally Posted by 06Hoss

As far as the local Schutzhund club goes, then may be able to recommend a good trainer for aggressive dogs, but I don't think they will be able to help me with a socialization issue since they train basic commands and attack dog commands. They aren't the type of SC that works the herding exercises...it's almost all Police GSDs. But I will give them a call.

I am not sure you understand what Schutzhund is at all. If I may ask, what is it that you think a SCH club is?

Schutzhund is a sport that tests breeding stock in three areas, obedience, tracking, and courage. ALL three phases test for obedience, but one is specifically designed to test it in very precise terms to include high level heeling, retrieves over the flat, hurdles and wall, recall and motion exercises (sitting, downing and standing out of a regular walking heel and even a running speed) and send aways (where the dog runs at full speed and in a direction given and downs on command at a distance while at the run) and holding a down while ANOTHER DOG is running through all of these exercises, with the handler out of sight, for 10 to 15 minutes. I emphasize the last to demonstrate that the dog must be safe and sane around another very high energy dog with and without the handlers presence and with out the safety of a leash EVER.

To even be granted the honor of competing in these exercises the dog must pass and preliminary test that is similar to both a CD (AKC basic obedience) and a temperament test to include many other dogs, often being walked in VERY close proximity. If the judge scenes ANY dog reactivity at all, he will test further. For example one judge had all of the dogs heel in line with about five feet separating one group from the next. So they nearly had their noses up one dogs behind while the one behind had their nose up his own! Then all had to stop and sit their dogs and the last in the line had to heel their dog in a weaving pattern to the front of the line (BTW their were about 10 in this group) and then stop at the front. After everyone had gone, then they all had to repeat this by weaving from the front to the back, so face on.

Keep in mind these are generally VERY tough dogs that are trained and conditioned to be very full of drive and confidence. Many are dog aggressive by their very nature and all are held to the same standard of control in the face of VERY high distractions.

The protection phase that tests a dogs courage and control (it is NOT "attack dog training" as you put it...) is a test of EXTREME obedience. It takes a dog and put him/her in the highest drive possible for that dog, and still expects the dog to be under VERY high control, and all off leash. Imagine a dog that has been allowed to chase and catch cats, put it in a gym with 30 freaked out cats, remove the leash, and expect that dog to listen and NOT chase those cats. Heck, even when you send the dog after the cats, you call it back with out the dog being allowed to touch one. That is an idea of the level of control and training these dogs get.

Know all of this, do you really think that these people that own dogs that the average person could never handle and train them to this level couldn't help you to train you dog aggressive dog to ignore other dogs Really? These people train their dogs to ignore the highest distraction possible and do it with flair and fun. I am sure you were not trying to be disrespectful of these people that put more time into their dogs than most, you were just ignorant of what Schutzhund really is and what training these dogs and people really go through when you said it was just basic obedience and "attack dog training." Their "basic" obedience is light years beyond what 98% of dogs ever learn.

I have looked over the website you offered. If you want to work with him, go for it... But I saw nothing that would make me want to work with him. He uses force to make an 11 week old puppy lay down when it doesn't understand the command and gave no rewards or anything to reinforce what the puppy didn't learn. He was repeating commands over and over and using other methods that most professionals would never use. His protection dog training was nothing more than a 10 month old pup being set up in an uncomfortable situation and barking out of fear. This is NOT the way you do any sort of protection training for ANY dog, much less a low drive puppy. Also I found nothing to show where he has done anything in the dog world where his success has been proven by knowledgeable, neutral experts. On top of that he is selling a pet pit bull with basic obedience for $2,000! You can get one of those for $100 at the pound. He is a sales man with slightly above average skill and selling his product. He may help you, and if you want to do it, go for it; I was just attempting to show you how to help yourself.

And a final quick question... What would herding have to do with any aspect of this discussion? You mention that the club near you does not even do herding like it was an important component of a Schutzhund training club. Herding has NOTHING to do with SCH, nor would it have anything to do with a dog aggressive dog short of teaching a dog to ignore distraction under stress. Pursue that sport if you want to, but where did it come from?

[annie]

Thanks Noelle for clarifying so correctly what is schutzhund . I wish I could have written the same words as yours, but my English is not so fluent as I would like ...