PINCH COLLARS...

[KRISSIE]

I hope I am posting this topic right, I have never posted a topic before so if it gets posted all wrong, sorry........

I have been using a pinch collar on my rotti when I walk her for about 2 years now & I was not aware of the problems they can cause.
The woman who trained her who is well known for training rotti's & came recomended by my previous vet, said that a pinch collar was the best method of control because my dog is not dog freindly & to be honest I am only 7lbs heavier than my dog & I live in an area where there are alot of dogs, so having good control of her when we go out is very important, even if someone else's dog starts barking at her first I still get frowned on because I've got the rotti( you know how it is ).Anyway recently I had her to a new vet & this vet told me pinch collars are no good that they can create alot of problems , is this true? .
So now I am looking into using another method to keep her under control when need be. I went to the pet store to check out those "no pull harnesses" but they don't look strong enough to hold a rotti , the guy in the pet store assured me it would hold her but then agian he'll say anything to make a sale.
So my question is could anyone suggest something I could use aside from a pinch collar to keep control of her & are those "no pull harnesses" strong enough to hold a Rotti ( she is 100lbs).
Also , I just found out her thyroid is a little on the slow side ( which she is now on medicine for)could this have been caused by the pinch collar?? ..

Any suggestions appreicated....

[Cosmo]

I am moving this to Training. Although you do have some related medical concerns, your primary question about the pinch collar is related to training. There have been several threads in Training about the correct way to use a pinch collar so I think you will get more comprehensive answers there. You might want to start a separate thread in Vets Corner about possible injuries, etc., that might be caused by a pinch collar.

Cosmo

[suzanne611]

I would be interested in hearing what kind of problems your vet believes pinch collars cause. I use one on my Boris and have found it to be a onderful training tool. What does your vet recommend? Just curious. I have no intention of giving up the prong unless I hear a really solid argument against it.

[Judi W]

Your vet is mistaken. Also, there is no way a pinch could be guilty of causing a thyroid deficiency. If she is simply at the low end, I would suggest diet and exercise before synthroid. With no other clinical symptoms than overweight, I would not be too quick to go to meds. True diagnostic testing for thyroid takes more than one test and more than one value.

The pinch is self-limiting in how far it tightens, even when fitted properly (which is quite tight).

The only difficulty with a pinch is that if it is used without training and used improperly, the dog can learn to tolerate a higher and higher degree of discomfort. Used correctly, it is an excellent training tool.

[WorkinDogz]

I suppose any training tool could cause damage when used incorrectly.

A pinch collar could puncture the skin if someone decided it was a good idea to tie a dog out on one

Collars and thyroid are unrelated for sure.

Judi is absolutely correct. Your vet is mistaken.

[KRISSIE]

I really didn't ask what kind of problems a pinch collar can cause , I would assume throat problems...

I have been using my pinch for 2 years now & find it good in terms of controling Brandi, I quess when I heard pinchers can cause problems I got nervous & thought it was worth checking into, I quess I'll ask the vet exactly what kind of problems it can cause, when I find out I'll let you know..

AS for the thyroid my neighbor is the one who told me it may have been caused by the pinch..

I guess I wasn't to clear on Brandi's medical history, she was diagnosed about a year & half ago with Addison's disease & she has to take florineff acetate & predisone(steriods) every day for the rest of her life, she also has to have her blood levels checked every 6 months so when I took her to the vet last friday for her bloodwork the results came back that her thyroid was a little slow & the doctor recomened that i put her on medicine for it, which I have. I was never told I could control it with diet & exercise...

I have had 2 dogs in my life before her and both were very healthy , they never had serious medical problems like she does, so this is all new to me...I'm still learning...

[Judi W]

Well, someone else might for sure know more than I, however I have found that too many vets are quick to put a dog on synthroid with marginal test results so I always recommend being conservative about that. With the pred and acetate, the poor girl has quite a bit of chemistry going on in her system doesn't she? Thyroid tests are quite tricky and I believe should be taken over time prior to deciding to medicate. Not trying to argue with your vet, and don't know what thyroid panels he has had done, so I should not assume anything. Sorry if I have. The pred of course is going to affect her weight and appetite. For sure, you want to treat the Addisons.

Anyway, inquiring minds all want to know what problems he thinks are associated with using the pinch, so make sure you get back to us when you have a chance to ask him. We could learn something new or have new issues to consider. (although I believe he is most likely advancing a personal opinion in regards to the pinch itself. Of course, you can always say, hey, why don't you work with this dog on a buckle collar then and show me how to do it?) :D

[KRISSIE]

I WANT TO THANK JUDY & EVERYONE ELSE FOR THE ADVICE & INFO, I APPRECIATE IT.

You were right Judy about the preds increasing her appetite & causing the weight gain, before the meds she was in great shape, now she is not the same dog I once knew, she is what I call "food obsessed" it's very sad, I miss the old Brandi I knew but I love her to death & I know she can't help it so I've learned to live with it. However, there is some good news, her vet has recently decreased her pred intake so hopefully this will help & the vet also said sometimes they can get completely off the preds altoghter which would be great but I guess it's one step at a time....

I am going back to the vet in September for another thyroid test to see how the soloxine( thyroid meds ) are working , I will ask her if there is an alternative for treating the tyhroid problem aside from meds, I will also ask exactly what kind of problem a pincher can cause...As for me I've decided after reading youre responses, to keep using my pincher until I find a legitimate reason not to...thanks agian for the advice , it really helped. :)

[RottnKid1]

If used or fitted improperly, anything can be harmful, as just about anything can be a weapon - a pen, a key, etc.

Though I usually don't use a prong, I prefer it over a choke. I've had wonderful results with Halti's and many times, I just use a flat buckle collar.

[ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: RottnKid1 ]

[luvarott]

Your vet IS correct that pinch collars can cause problems especially when they are incorrectly used.
Pinch collars used to correct young impressionable Rott puppies at an age when they need to be actively socializing with other dogs/people can create lifelong problems. Example: your Rott lunges toward another dog, BUT, he is young and is not doing this in the spirit of aggression, just stupidity and overeagerness to play with another dog. He gets a painful corrective jerk off the other dog. He begins to associate other dogs with this painful/emphatic correction. He learns to avoid other dogs....even learns to actively dislike other dogs, because their presence means a correction to him....Got the picture??
IF you have a trainer astute enough to let him understand that he CAN go play with other dogs when allowed to you can avoid this scenario, but there are FEW trainers out there good enough.
Your dog has been on a pinch for 2 years. Not much you can do to erase the initial damage that may have been done by using this collar.

Keep following your vet's advice on the thyroid medication. Even a borderline low, but acceptable thyroid level can cause long term damage to your dog if left untreated and thyroid problems are epidemic in Rottweilers due to lack of testing and "blinders" among breeders.

[laurlitt]

Originally posted by luvarott:
<STRONG>Keep following your vet's advice on the thyroid medication. Even a borderline low, but acceptable thyroid level can cause long term damage to your dog if left untreated and thyroid problems are epidemic in Rottweilers due to lack of testing and "blinders" among breeders.</STRONG>

I want to disagree a little here. Although I am no expert myself on this issue I do know that not all vets understand the throid levels for all breeds. What might be low for one breed is not low for another. With that said I don't know what your borderline low was.

Blaise was diagnosed as being low and put on meds immediately (he had no other symptoms of low thyroid...he was a skinny active dog--) well the meds withing 6 months shot his thyroid levels thru the roof and his behaviors became less than desireable. When this happened I went to another vet who seemed much more informed and said he should have never been on the meds in the first place... we immediately took him off and he has been 'normal' ever since! I hope before you start your dog on a lifetime of thyroid medication that you understand what is going on with your dog and maybe talk to a couple other vets about this... But that is just based on my horrible experience!

[Ramon]

Get on Yahoo and search for "prong collar". You'll find several links that reference a study in Germany where they tested 50 dogs with a prong collar and 50 dogs with a choke chain. When the dogs died, almost all the dogs that were trained with a choke collar suffered some kind of neck or thyroid injury, while almost all the dogs trained with a prong collar suffered no injury.
It makes perfect sense to me. You have to exert a lot more force with a choke collar to get the dog's attention, especially if it's a big, sturdy dog.

[KRISSIE]

I believe the OP's DVM was referring to physical damage; not training/conditioning issues connected with the incorrect use of the prong collar.

You are correct workindog that is what the vet meant..

Do you guys thing I should get a second opinion on this thyroid situation??

[Franco]

Krissie,

Since this question is partially training and partially 'vet' related, I think you should post your thyroid questions in the Vet forum and you will get some good responses there and continue to get training advice on this thread.

Thanks,
Franco

[cleonet]

Hi! I have a rotti who loves other dogs and would drag me all over the place! - I too am only about 10 pound more than my rott.
I use a gentle leader on her now for the past year, it's been working great. Proper training is always the best method, no matter
which kind of collar you use. I hope you
find your answers.