Question on the alpha roll over

[annistonsmommy]

I have a question on the alpha roll over. I do at times do the alpha roll over on Anniston, at first he fought with me on it, and now when I do it to him, he doesnt fight anymore, he makes eyecontact with me, and lets me win. Will he always do this? Or when he gets older will he get more agressive with it? I read a couple times on the board that some people think its not recommended to do on older dogs. Any info on this that could help me?

Renee

[SelkeysCompanion]

I don't think you should be doing this.There are LOT'S of ways to show your dog you are the Alfa.A true Alfa would have no reason to get down and challenge.I think this confuses the dog,he thinks you wanna'play',like a puppy.His Mother was the first Alfa,take her place.This Alfa roll thingy is stupid who thought of it? ;)

[Ethár]

I agree totally with Selkeyscompanion!!!

This alpha-roll-thing IS stupid.

I got into serious troubles with my Ambrosius at first - took a long time to fix his confidence towards me.

You will most certainly end up with a dog that only STRUGGLES and battle with you. If you continue this the dog will become more and more tough and it is NOT FUNNY when maturing - I assure you of that....

Be consequent - be stubborn - be fair to your dog..... this is my advice.

[Judi W]

The alpha roll is humans pretending they are in a dog fight with their dog. In a dog fight the strongest and most vicious one wins, if not today, then perhaps tomorrow. I don't think that is the best way to manage a dog (if you are a human). Best you control the mind and not attempt to be a fighter. A dog that allows that is doing just that - allowing it. One that does not intend to take that crap will eat your lunch, if not now, when it is bigger and stronger. Leadership within the human/dog relationship should be determined by fair and proper training and presentment. In the "wild", the alpha is at some point displaced as a younger strong adult beats the crap out of them. The alpha then must leave the pack and usually starves to death as canids are not solitary hunters. Nature is not kind to the old, infirm or weaker. The betas in the pack (which is what we should train our dogs to be in our relationship, do not experience those beatings and expulsion. They accept their position and remain peacefully within the pack. In society, the expulsion is usually the pound or a one way trip to the vets.

[fergie]

Someone I know has a male rottie who is going through adolescence right now. She has been sold on the alpha roll for quite some time...however, the dog is maturing and is starting to challenge her, and it's gotten very dangerous. There are other ways to assert yourself with an animal. I recommend the book "Leader of the Pack" and also the book "Culture Clash" for advice on dealing with dominance. They use common sense. When it comes down to a physical match b/w a rottweiler and a person, the person will eventually lose, pound for pound.There are safer ways to maintain leadership over your animal...and he will thank you for it!!! ;)

[SelkeysCompanion]

Ethar,Judi W, :) :)
I'd like to know who's the idiot that invented this idea and thought it would work?

[CarolineS]

Exactly right, Dei. If you ever watch a mother Rott discipline an older, over-rambunctious pup, you would see her place her mouth around his muzzle. The pup then throws himself to the ground. She didn't physically put him there and the reason he threw himself to the ground was because he was signalling to her that he understood she was "alpha" and he'd better quit whatever it was that pissed her off. LOL

I think alpha is as much a state of mind, as it is a physical prowess. Dogs size each other up and it is usually the one with the "strongest" body language that comes out on top. It doesn't always involve a fight to prove physical strength, in fact, most dogs would rather not.

Point of proof, when I got my Rott, I had an old, 8 lb poodle mix. When my Rott first came in the house, the poodle mix got all stiff-legged, snarled at her, pee'd on the floor and stomped away. After that, the Rott would go nowhere near her and they studiously avoided each other until the little one passed away. That little one was the boss and there was no doubt about it.

Rolling and pinning your dog is probably causing a certain amount of fear in him and making him meet your eye contact will make it worse. When a dog looks away from another dog, he's signalling he wants to break the tension of the situation and quite often, he's signalling that he recognizes you as "the boss". I think the rolling will do more harm than good in the long run. All we need to do to be "alpha" with most dogs is give consistent, fair treatment and lots of obedience training. :)

[Judi W]

Correct, about how the mother does it, however, you are not "mother" nor are you a dog. Action between dogs is not always benign and gentle discipline between adult and pup. It can and often is a true fight for survival and supremaciy. Let us just suffice it to say that as a human, it would be best to behave as one who not only walks on two legs and does not have carnivor jaws, but one who is able to think and reason and devise superior methods for dealing with another species.

[Mattweiser]

I agree 100% with Judy....

another thing to keep in mind is that if one chooses to use the Alpha-Roll.. you are teaching your dog that physical confrontation is how you gain dominance. So do not be surprised when it uses aggression to challenge you.

The alpha position, is a position of leadership and trust (both ways).. the alpha dog is responsible for the well-being of his (or her) pack..... if your dog does not trust you, how can he accept you as Alpha?

-Matt

[Dogfolks]

The alpha roll may not be good for your dog and could be dangerous for you.

Please check the archives. The silence on this subject is probably because the experts have posted the answer many times....practice the alpha "role" not the alpha "roll"

[Dei]

I'd surmise that it was someone without a great deal of dog sense, but a lot of selling ability.

If I may make just one point -- when you see a wolf roll over before a dominant one, most of the time, the subordinate animal PLACED itself there rather than being thrown to the ground and held there, struggling.
I feel that the alpha roll seriously misunderstands what the relationship in the wild canids it claims to follow is.

If your dog decides one day to rip your face up, given that it's reaaal close to his mouth in this manouver, you'll never see him coming... It's doubly dangerous: not only do you provoke your dog, but you leave yourself in an exceptionally vulnerable position.

[luvarott]

A major component of your relationship with your dog is based on trust. Would YOU trust someone that suddenly threw you down on the ground and forcibly held you there?? May work for some lesser dogs/breeds.....but is a really stoooooooopid thing to do to an intelligent Rottweiler.
You gain trust and therefore respect, from the dog by mental control NOT physical manhandling.

[annistonsmommy]

I loved all the advice on the Alpha roll over! This is my first time ever owning a rottweiler and wasnt sure of what the trainer told me. This is not the trainer that I use all the time. I had Anniston in a socialization class, and this is what she told me to do.

What are the best ways to make him realize I'm boss when he needs to be reminded?

Renee

[southerncomfort]

The creator of the alpha rollover is Brother Job i believe. I think it was totally intended for pups to 4 months of age or younger who have not had much obedience therefore correcting with commands is ineffective. Read "How to be your Dogs Best Friend" by the New Skete Monks. A fantastic book, although agreeably some of their tactics are questionable, you cannot argue their end result. They are famous with training and living with their GSD's.

[Judi W]

Please note: Job Michael Evans stated on more than one occasion prior to his death that he greatly regretted putting the Alpha Roll-over in that book........ One of those things that seemed like a good idea in theory, but in practice was not.