clicker training question?

[jelly8bean]

Ok.. here is the question. I was looking at a keen new training thingy that has a small target ball on an extension pointer type device with a clicker built in the base. In my obedience class with one of my dobies there were some folks with a boxer who were trying to use it. They said they taught him to target the end, with click and treat. But as they use it to train him on the jumps and table they said they are clicking to let him know he is doing it right, but not treating till the end of the work. So they point the target at the table, command "table" and when the dog gets on the table they click. This doesn't jive with what I've learned about clicker training. They are saying that the treat has to be faded, which I agree with, but the click should be faded with the treat right? I mean the whole point is click = treat right? So you fade the click, not just the treat? Trainer didn't want to take sides..said whatever works for your dog. I haven't been doing this long enough to feel sure, so I wanted to check with those who are very well versed in clicker training.

[Ayoka]

How do you mean not treating until end of work? With more clicker savvy dogs I find you CAN extend the time between cick and treat however 1 click still = 1 treat - that's the power of clicker training. For trials you need to fade clicker and treats simultaneously or eventually the clicker will come to mean nothing to the dog. You would fade both clicker and treat using a variable reinforcement schedule AND by reinforcing things randomly through the routine.

The more I work with clicker training the more I think it gets a bad (i.e. I have tried it and it doesn't work for my dog) because people apply the principles improperly and then become unsatisfied with the results. My guess is that your instructor didn't take "sides" because she herself does not fully understand the method? I know in the classes I attend clicking without treating would be noticed and get a reaction from the instructor like "hey remember if you click you promise to treat".

[jelly8bean]

I was hoping you would respond Ayoka.. I knew you were pretty well versed in clicker training. Yeah that is what I believed.. click= treat - so you can fade it, extend time between click and treat, but if you click you must treat .. you shouldn't just click after the table, and click after the jump and click after the finish and then provide one treat at the end.

[Zumie05]

If you click more than once, and the dog hasn't got his reward from the previous click, then your clicks are diminishing in value as far as the dog sees. 1 click definitely means one treat, otherwise it won't be special to the dog anymore.

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by jelly8bean

I was hoping you would respond Ayoka.. I knew you were pretty well versed in clicker training. Yeah that is what I believed.. click= treat - so you can fade it, extend time between click and treat, but if you click you must treat .. you shouldn't just click after the table, and click after the jump and click after the finish and then provide one treat at the end.

right...click = treat...but you don't have to click something he already knows. For example if I was teaching 'up' and 'off' I would click once after 'up' and once after 'off'. If my dog knows 'up' already, I would wait and click at the end of the sequence....when he obeyed my command 'off'. Once the behavior is learned, the click can be faded out or removed.

I have used the clickers with the 'target stick' on it. You do teach the dog to 'target' the end of the stick, then you can use the stick to suggest targeting other behaviors. Example...teaching your dog to turn off/on lights, teaching jump, spin, etc. I taught Nisha to target with my fingers, but I think the stick is a great idea. I do however question training your dogs to jump on tables ....behaviors that get rewarded get repeated, do you really want your dogs jumping on tables?

edit....Ha ha, just realized you probably meant agility tables . Thank goodness .

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by jelly8bean

you shouldn't just click after the table, and click after the jump and click after the finish and then provide one treat at the end.

Correct and to tell the truth I have been clicker train during the learning phase (weaves, contacts etc.) and when we're maintaining skills (i.e spending a few minutes on down contacts) but once Bear "knows" the obstacle we go through a sequence and then play tug if he's focused and does reasonably well given my novice handling skills. In rally and agility class, when we do practice sequences, I pick an exercise or two to reinforce based on the coursemap and what we find the hardest because it's kinda hard to go through a whole sequence and click/treat after EVERY obstacle/station not to mention unfair to other classmates who are waiting their turn on equipment.

[jelly8bean]

Whoo.. yes I meant agility tables. Think about a boxer on a kitchen table? No treats for that behavior!

[Cdn1050]

LOL ... I use the word "table" too for the agility platform. I know what gadget you're referring to, I saw it just before the holidays at the obedience class my dog is enrolled in. Honestly, I wouldn't use it. Reason being is I use my hands as a guide for my dog where I want her to go. When it comes to "touch" and "target", I use my arms and hand to point in the direction or to the object I want her to go, followed by the command. I've always learned and am still kind of new to clicker training that click = treat. Even if you accidentally click the clicker, a treat should follow. For agility it was easy not to use the clicker and treats, as just the opportunity to be able to try out the equipment, followed by a game of tug when the course was completed was very rewarding for my girl.

ETA: When I hear people say things such as "the dog will bond with the clicker instead of the owner" or "my dog will eat the clicker", I know right away they are not using the clicker properly and weaning it properly.