Clicker training question

[stephaniemaes43]

I am totally new to the clicker training. Im going to pick up a book in it very soon. I just have a quick question. My Rottie runs back and forth against the back fence barking at who knows what in the morning when we put her outside to leave for work. Its still dark, so im thinking that is a cat or something. Not really sure. But my questions is, can clicker training work for stopping from her excessive barking?

Any comments would be helpful.

Thanks,

[Ayoka]

Well the thing about ANY training is that you need to prevent them from doing the behaviour you want to change (barking at the fenceline) while you teach them something else (maybe a recall from the fence). This means being outside with her at all times and not giving her the opportunity to bark.

Clicker training could work if you could start her in less "exciting" circumstances and work up to what really makes her go crazy.

It would be a lot of small steps and take some time but I think it would be possible.

[Wolfshohle]

Originally Posted by stephaniemaes43

I am totally new to the clicker training. Im going to pick up a book in it very soon. I just have a quick question. My Rottie runs back and forth against the back fence barking at who knows what in the morning when we put her outside to leave for work. Its still dark, so im thinking that is a cat or something. Not really sure. But my questions is, can clicker training work for stopping from her excessive barking?

Any comments would be helpful.

Thanks,

You are discussing two separate issues. Clicker training is a means to instantly communicate to the dog it offered the correct behaviour and is an indication (marker) that reward will be forthcoming.

I clicker train in all three phases - tracking, obedience and protection.

A clicker would not work at all in this situation.

Running a fence line is negative behaviour that is self-enforcing (rewarding) to the dog. So is the barking.

The way to prevent this behaviour is to limit the dog's options so it cannot do this sort of behaviour. You would need to have a place you could give her time out for negative behaviour like running the fence and barking. This way, she would learn when she offers behaviour like this, then she gets time out (ie loses freedom of the yard).

Dogs only do behaviour that is reinforced. When the behaviour is not reinforced, the behaviour disappears. The difficulty when trying to correct a behaviour problem where the dog self-reinforces itself, is to make it so it cannot self-reinforce.

Jane

[Ayoka]

Wolfshohle, would love to hear what clicker resources you use for SchH training...it's something that I have wondered about for some time & I know there have to be people out there using the method for schH work.

Originally Posted by Wolfshohle

A clicker would not work at all in this situation.

I must respectfully disagree with this point. You can train a dog an alternative behaviour to the chasing. The book Control unleashed (and the newsgroup) have examples of using positive reinforcement to teach particularly reactive dogs alternative behaviours to some very basic, instinctual behaviours like chasing. Of course at first you train the behaviour you DO want and then you do it under more and more demanding circumstances until you can call your dog off of a squirrell (an example used in the book I believe).

stephaniemaes43 In essence you are clicking for the alternative behaviour which you must ask for. Since the behaviour is marked by you and the reward comes from you, you MUST be outside with the dog to do this and may never be able to leave the dog alone outside but you may be able to teache her to stop barking/chasing when you call her.
It's time consuming and not for the easily discouraged or the novice clicker trainer but it IS possible.

[Wolfshohle]

If a dog is getting self-reinforced, then it is rewarding itself (ie having fun) doing what it is doing. I simply can see no way how a clicker in such a situation could possibly be effective. The dog is being reinforced by its own behaviour. How on earth could a clicker be effective in such a situation?

Now, if a dog was trained to down when you said down, and was running the fence, then you would say down. Dog would drop. You would click. Then give reward to the dog (food or toy or your attention). But that dog is already trained to a high enough level to be focused on you as soon as you enter the picture. If the dog has not been trained to this level, and you introduce a command, the dog does not learn and the handler sets themselves up for lots of frustration.

As far as clicker in schutzhund. Books could be written on the subject but these are 3 examples how we use the clicker.

tracking - you want the dog to lay straight, looking ahead, not turning around and looking at the handler. The dog looks at the handler after indicating as the dog wants the handler to get to them as the dog has learned the handler rewards at articles. So what I would do (and I am talking with dogs at least to the SchH 1 level) would be if dog turns head. All movement stops. Dog decides to look ahead. Click. Handler moves towards the dog. Dog looks back. Handler stops. Dog looks forward again. Click. Handler moves forward. The dog soon learns the quickest way it can get the handler to their side is by staring straight down the track.

obedience - every single exercise should be broken into the smallest segments. Clicked for the first step, then it is extended. For example, for focus. You first click when the dog offers you its eyes without you saying anything. Then you use it for positioning.

protection - the click means reward is forthcoming. What is the reward in protection? The bite. So the dog is clicked every time before it is given a bite. You can also use a whistle to bridge the behaviour - ie running from a blind for the bite as dogs can only link behaviour for 5 seconds maximum and then it is lost.

Jane

[stephaniemaes43]

Thanks Wolfshole. You have helped alot. Just didn't know anything about click training. Im going to buy a book and learn more about it soon.

[ashakuntakinte]

I am no expert by far but if you can find out if she also barks throughout the day when your at work (from a neighbor) you may find out she does have a problem or that she may just be barking (in the morning) to scare off another animal.

If your asking how do you stop this behavior- then before you scream out there to shut up (so she doesnt wake the neighborhood) make sure she is doing something wrong first- and not warning you ( which she should be doing).

Clicker Training a verbal command is fairly easy- take her out back and give her a command to come to a certain location (backdoor) and rest (its three parts) - verbal, movement to relaxed position , click , treat(or praise). Keep repeating and do it when she does and doesnt bark .

[Robenk]

I don't know if this would help, but I have 2 ideas you could try and both are from Victoria Stillwell on "It's Me or the Dog" Both. I know a tv show, but I've learned a lot of practical advice from her and she does use clickers!

One show she was training a couple with 4 wiemereiners (sp?)! One was very aggressive toward the fence & other dogs. What Victoria did was to have them carry a sporting whistle and train the dog to come back to the whistle (louder than a clicker) for a treat BEFORE they could carry on at the fence, if at all possible. If the dog was already barking, she still had them blow the whistle and when the dog returned it got a treat. They were much more successful at getting the dog BEFORE it went crazy. Also, she said the dog did not get enough mental & physical stimulation so it was territorial & bored...

The 2nd one..we've used this one and IT WORKS!! Victoria had an owner with a bulldog that barked at EVERYTHING inside & out...she had the hubby get 2 stove pot lids and bang them together when he barked WITHOUT the dog seeing him. The idea was that if the dog did the awful barking a MORE AWFUL noise would happen and he wouldn't realize where it came from. Of course, she had the owners make sure he wasn't barking at something as a warning (most of that dog's problem was inside the house). We've done this with Carley...when we got her her hobby was barking outside!!! We hid inside the house with the door slightly cracked and everytime she barked "BANG!" went the pot lids... our biggest trouble was trying not to giggle when she came looking for the noise! Boy did she quit!! We've since used it on our neighbors' dogs too!!

I know these aren't exactly "clicker" excercises, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents...

[Nishasmom]

I also think that a clicker could be used in this situation. The cue I would teach to stop the behavior would be 'leave-it'. First, teach the behavior using toys, food, ect. Then you can use it for other things birds, dogs, cats . The thing is you must actively teach the command for it to work. This means you outside with your clicker and treats (high value) in the morning in the dark. You can click for any movement away from the fence...eye contact, head turning towards you, ect.

[Wolfshohle]

These are my questions.

Ok, so you are going to use the clicker to try and correct negative behaviour that the dog self-reinforces.

The clicker is a tool that is used to instantly mark CORRECT behaviour - it never lies - and ALWAYS means reward is forthcoming. Generally to teach an exercise, it is taught most effectively when the dog is in a lower drive. Generally, when dogs are running and barking, they are in a fairly high drive and they are having fun.

When exactly would you click and what would you be clicking for?

What happens if you tell the dog to do something and it keeps running the fence and barking and ignores you? What has the dog just been taught? It only takes a dog of three times doing something and the habit is formed.

And do you want to have to stand out in the yard with your dog constantly, luring it to you, just to try and stop it thinking of running the fence and barking? When my dogs choose to run a fence, or bark at someone walking by, and all dogs I have owned have tried it at one point, the dog is removed to its kennel. None of my dogs bark at people walking by or run fences. They have learned that this sort of behaviour is not beneficial to them and they have to go to their kennel and lose the run of the yard when they offer this sort of behaviour. There is no correction to the dog or yelling. The dog is simply removed from the situation that it is finding self-rewarding that I find to be annoying or bothersome.

Behaviour that is reinforced becomes stronger.

Behaviour that is not reinforced becomes weaker and then disappears.

Jane

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

I also think that a clicker could be used in this situation. The cue I would teach to stop the behavior would be 'leave-it'. First, teach the behavior using toys, food, ect. Then you can use it for other things birds, dogs, cats . The thing is you must actively teach the command for it to work. This means you outside with your clicker and treats (high value) in the morning in the dark. You can click for any movement away from the fence...eye contact, head turning towards you, ect.

Originally Posted by Wolfshohle

These are my questions.

Ok, so you are going to use the clicker to try and correct negative behaviour that the dog self-reinforces.

The clicker is a tool that is used to instantly mark CORRECT behaviour - it never lies - and ALWAYS means reward is forthcoming. Generally to teach an exercise, it is taught most effectively when the dog is in a lower drive. Generally, when dogs are running and barking, they are in a fairly high drive and they are having fun.

Exactly...did you even read my post? I specifically said to teach the behavior using food and toys first. Once that is perfected you can practice under higher distractions.

When exactly would you click and what would you be clicking for?

again...in my post.

What happens if you tell the dog to do something and it keeps running the fence and barking and ignores you? What has the dog just been taught? It only takes a dog of three times doing something and the habit is formed.

I have been taught not to use verbal commands until you are 99% sure the dog will follow them. In this situation I would wait for the dog to 'offer' the leave it. It doesn't have to be the full 'leave-it'...just eye contact or head movement (towards me). Often times I will use a sound (kisses maybe?) when the dog looks at me, I will click and reward. Once the dog gets that first click they pick up pretty quickly.

And do you want to have to stand out in the yard with your dog constantly, luring it to you, just to try and stop it thinking of running the fence and barking?

Um...again, you must go outside to teach the leave-it behavior. Once it is learned you can give the command from inside. The idea is after 'leaving-it' every day for so long the dog will not have to be told to 'leave-it'.

When my dogs choose to run a fence, or bark at someone walking by, and all dogs I have owned have tried it at one point, the dog is removed to its kennel. None of my dogs bark at people walking by or run fences. They have learned that this sort of behaviour is not beneficial to them and they have to go to their kennel and lose the run of the yard when they offer this sort of behaviour. There is no correction to the dog or yelling. The dog is simply removed from the situation that it is finding self-rewarding that I find to be annoying or bothersome.

.
Great, but the OP asked if clicker training couldb e used....it can. I told her how. Of course it is not the only way to teach the dog not to bark, but it WILL work.

Behaviour that is reinforced becomes stronger.

Behaviour that is not reinforced becomes weaker and then disappears.

Jane

agreed . I am wondering, are you familiar with clicker training at all? Have you ever taught the behavior 'leave-it' using a clicker? I have had GREAT success with this method on multiple dogs.

[leanershnitzel]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

I am wondering, are you familiar with clicker training at all?

...umm yeah. I believe Jane uses clicker training in all three phases of shutzhund. I have been to a clicker training seminar at her club where she is the training director. She understands clicker training more than your average bear.

I too believe a dog running the fence is in high drive. You will be waiting an awful long time for anything positive to re-enforce. Maybe after it is tired or if the other dog is gone. By then the dog will have already self enforced its bad behaviour.

IMO removing the dog from the situation would be the way to go.

[Nishasmom]

Wolfshohle specifically said "A clicker would not work at all in this situation." which is an incorrect statement. There may be easier and faster methods, but you can teach leave-it with a clicker.

[Wolfshohle]

You can teach any behaviour with a clicker.

So, you are saying teach the dog "leave it". My first example was tell the dog to "down". Either the dog knows the command or it does not and it has to stop whatever it is doing to follow a command. Anything instructed to a dog is a command. If a dog is running a fence, and if it knows the word down, then it drops and it is not running a fence. End of problem. But, if the dog is not trained to this level, and you say "down" and the dog does not down, what has the dog just learned? Same as if you use a different command just as "leave it".

What happens if the dog continues to run the fence and ignore you?

Quote:
When exactly would you click and what would you be clicking for?

again...in my post.

The point is.....if the handler clicks WHILE THE DOG IS RUNNING....or BARKING....you have just clicked, and indicated to the dog, that it is correct behaviour to run a fence. Timing is critical with a clicker.

This is why I asked you what exactly you were clicking for....eye contact....stop of motion....movement towards you?....there are a hundred more variables that you could be clicking for.

I would think it would be as clear as mud to the dog.

I am very familiar with clicker training how I use it. I use it in all three phases - tracking, obedience and protection. I have had multiple dogs (male and female) high in Schutzhund trials, high on CDX legs and high in CKC trials from using clicker training. I could not imagine training a dog without a clicker attached to my hand or on my remote for the e-collar as both are essential training tools to me.

Of course, the above is just my opinion.

Jane

[Nishasmom]

Wolfshohle I would click first for eye contact, then head movement, then body movement, ect. As the dog improves, I ask for more.

I think I am done with this thread. I agree, there are better ways. I was just trying to explain that yes, you CAN teach a dog with a clicker in this situation. Sorry for offending you, I am sure you are far more qualified than I .