Prong collar not stopping the pulling

[lblax]

hmmmm i thought she just wanted to get her dog to quit pulling on her leash which i believe should be done this way. if you disagree everyone has there own way. where we trained everything was trained with motivation and plenty of praise this was just the 1st step after the correction there was plenty of praise. but we didnt say heel or anything when they tarted pulling on there leashjust the correction and the praize. and in my opinion i cant really think of anytime that your dog should be pulling on the leash. by the end of the 1st training class 12 dogs were all walking loose leashed while my trainers kids rode horses and her dogs were playing ball and running around while we walked or dogs. and as far as the hard corrections im not talking doble handed throw your weight in to the thing. but you have to temper your corrections to your own dogs tempermant some dogs are soft and some are extremly hard and it does take alot to get them to notice. and imo if her dog was pulling with a prong on to the point of chocking then her corrections were probably to soft. well anyway thats how our trainer started things out and it worked beutifully for us . and for those that will say for gods sake switch trainers here is a few of her qualifications besides being prez of the area working dog assc. and the only area search and rescue unit (she has been training dogs since 1968. She has a teaching degree in Education and Special Education. She received her Masters degree in Education from the University of Minnesota. she trains and competes with her own dogs in Schutzhund. She is a 12 year 4-H Dog club leader. trained dogs in search and rescue in the areas of wilderness, cadaver, tracking/trailing, article work and Federal Emergency Management Disaster work. Problem solving for service dogs is a specialty area. She recently received the gold sports medal for training Schutzhund and Service dogs from the United Schutzhund Clubs of America)

[TrinityRun]

(It's getting late, so be kind. Too many bugs floating around my screen to be spellchecking. They could dot my I's and cross my T's, and I wouldn't know the difference.)

Onward!

Larry, that's an impressive resume. Would you mind if I asked you what her name is? You may send it privately if you are more comfortable.

To answer your question above, a dog should be at the end of his lead when we build drives. Or just looking a squirrel in the backyard. Or when he's a puppy and making shark-like dashes at a tumbling leaf, only to flip over, get up and try again but this time harder! When on an evening walk he sees a suspicious person. Then there are those dogs who shoot to the end of their lead to strike a show stack. In all these instances, the dog should be ripped with intensity and he can't be if he's worried about that correction that is sure to follow.

Raising and training a dog is much like raising and training a child. Allowing them to spread their wings but at the same time teaching them their boundaries. Dogs, like children respect and welcome rules. You know what? Much of what they do is understandable when you look at it from their standpoint. The trick to being a good parent and "trainer" is to not only read the behavior but to find the motivation behind it. Only when you understand something can you move on. (Isn't that true in anything?)

In closing, it's not correct to summarize our posts as simply disagreeing with one another on how to help this poster. The fact of the matter is you are handing out misinformation - from corrections to how to attach a lead to a prong and that can be a very dangerous thing in the hands of an anxious reader.

[Mattweiser]

Very good info here...

However, WD, I gotta disagree with you here:

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
The prong collar will always be the most misunderstood, misused and ill-fitted piece of equiptment available...

I think you are overlooking the nasty E-Collar!!! :p :D

just messing with you!

[Judi W]

Messin with trouble. The reason the prong wins is that it is very inexpensive so there are a lot of misused ones out there. (ever the analyst), Judi

[Mattweiser]

I am going to jump into this...


I have read and heard the varying opinions on how to properly attach the lead to a prong.... IMO whether you use the swivel or the dead ring, is up to the handler... I have and do use both ways.. if someone chooses to use the swivel, big deal!!!.. let's not get bent around the axel of something minute, and focus on the actual training theories here........

Yes, I know many of you will say, but the dead-ring provides a more timely and acute correction, and you are correct..... but to take something that WD said earlier in this thread.... it is better that a beginner handler puts a prong on "properly" and takes their dog for a walk, rather than never taking the dog out.....

as for what Iblax was posting, I agree that there should be praise on the back-end of the correction (you gotta tell 'em what you want)...I did a few (very few) sessions like Larry was explaining (no praise), and my boy was slinking around because he didn't know what was causing the corrections..... so he shut down :( ... the next time I praised after he spun around and came back to me... he was fine with that

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Judi W
Messin with trouble. The reason the prong wins is that it is very inexpensive so there are a lot of misused ones out there. (ever the analyst), Judi

Touche!!! :p

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Mattweiser


Touche!!! :p

Rooooooooscoe!!! Mattweiser is touchin' JudiW!!!!!!! Just because he's talkin' French...don't think we don't know what you mean Mister!!

:D :D :D ;)


Matt--

The price tag is why I believe the prong will be the training tool of choice to always be misused before the more pricey E-collar...

[Mattweiser]

I'll buy that.... I mean..... I got it..... I mean......LOL

<sucking up his pride> you are probably right...

[dogs rule]

Thank you all for the strong response.

I 100% agree that training a dog not to pull is the best solution. However, this is very difficult when you rescue an 18 month old dog with NO leash manners who is never the less a very energic dog that need to get out to be exercised and socialized.

I went thru a series of obedience classes with a trainer who believes in positive motivation -- treats and praise. The dog responded very well to her and has since learned all the basic commands, sit, stand, down, down-stay, heel, etc. BUT, this trainer told me that it was "virtually impossible" to teach an grown dog with this level of ingrained bad habit not to pull. She suggested a gentle leader. I posted earlier asking for people's opinion, and overwhelmingly was told that the prong was the way to go. Judi W. wrote a very good piece about teaching the dog with horse training techniques, but I am still struggling thru this advanced technique.

I would love to hear if anyone has a success story where they have taught an older dog NOT TO PULL, without use of a "crutch" and how. Also, I would like to hear what people think is the best "crutch" to use if you are in a situation like mine.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by dogs rule
BUT, this trainer told me that it was "virtually impossible" to teach an grown dog with this level of ingrained bad habit not to pull.

I would have issues with any "trainer" that makes this kind of statement......

[dogs rule]

Matt:

When I posted this "virtually impossible" comment before, I got a flood of similar reactions about "How could a trainer say this." But then every single "success" story about not pulling that was posted involved the use of a prong or gentle leader. In otherwords, they used a "crutch." If anyone out has successfuly RETRAINED a a "pulling machine" not to pull, I would be extremely interested to hear about your success stories and techniques.

[Bruce Lanthier]

I imagine, then, that using treats would be a "crutch". What is the problem with using a "crutch" or, in other words, what is the problem with using something that works? It seems as if you have already heard MANY success stories but they involved "crutches" so you disqualify them. Short of hypnotism I think you're going to have to break down and use a "crutch" if you want your dog to stop pulling. Actually, 98% of the advice here involves using some kind of "crutch" (treats, praise, crates, leashes, collars, kennels, etc.) when training a dog so it may be awhile before you get an answer to your question.

[TrinityRun]

Crutches are for those who can't or won't walk. For people who want the dog to walk on the leash without dragging them all around yet have no intention of ever teaching the dog - then a prong collar is a "crutch." However, when the collar is used in conjunction with teaching (to heel, for instance) then it becomes a tool.

To answer your previous question, you most certainly can train an older dog to not pull and you would do it the same way you'd teach a youngster and they always pull in the beginning.

Before you begin any lesson though, you have to ask yourself two key questions:

1) What do I plan on accomplishing *today*

You can't step onto the field and just wing it - you have to have a good idea of what you hope to accomplish *that* session. I know, dogs are notorious for throwing a stick in the plans but you'll just have to make allowances for that. For the most part you will be able keep things on course if you stick to your plan.

2) What do I want my end result to look like?

Be clear on what you anticipate your end result to be so you have a destination to work towards. It helps you to stay focused, motivated while enabling you to track your progress.

Break the exercises down from the very beginning and make it fun!

[K9-man]

09/10/2001 3:36 PM CDT

Originally posted by Bruce Lanthier
Actually, 98% of the advice here involves using some kind of "crutch" (treats, praise, crates, leashes, collars, kennels, etc.)

Some may call these crutches; I call them tools. ;)

[godfreyc]

To defend dogs rule, he/she did not call the prong collar a crutch Bruce, the people replying to the post commented that a prong collar was the most missused and abused "crutch" in dog ownership.