Treats while Training

[livertw]

I'm confused. Daisy, 10 months, has been through two different puppy training classes. The first was food treat oriented. She responded very well. I used cut up fat free chicken hot dogs mixed with tiny kibble. The trainer always had handfuls of "goodies" and treated the pups liberally to induce the behavior she wanted, plus she gave tons of vocal phase and petting. Daisy loved the class and really was learning. She repeated everything at home very well.

However, in the second class (no food treats), the trainer criticized me for treating (bribing) Daisy to do want I wanted. She said Daisy mouths at my hands because she is looking for treats. I feel like I'm failing Puppy 101 and am a bad mom. I almost feel as if Daisy has regressed in her group training behavior because no treats are allowed. There is very little exuberant praising and happy petting. Daisy is restless in class and does not respond as well as when treats were used.

I do treat her at home (mostly tiny slices of carrot or broken bits of dog cookies) and lots of petting and praise. I really must get Daisy back on track with 100% compliance to sit, come, off, and just plain paying attention to me.

What to you "wise ones" think about using food to reward. Is it a "bribe" or does it simply underline (for the dog) GOOD JOB!!!

[Amy Davidson]

Hi Nancy,

I think Daisy has answered your question for you! :D
Have you read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor? The revised edition is not expensive at all, I ordered it on-line for $12 or $13.
Wonderful book!!
I have started clicker training our dogs. I get more results in 3 or 4 sessions (5 minute sessions) than I would see in a week's worth of more traditional type training.
Daisy is responding to the positive reinforcement you are giving her. I say keep it up, and lose the new trainer! You'll be happy, your baby will be happy and you'll get the obedience you want from her.

Happy training,

Amy

[spiritkdb]

I second Amy's response! I have clicker trained my girl age 15 mos. since she started puppy class at age 12 weeks. Positive reinforcement works wonders!!! Sounds like you may need a new instructor... Also you can teach "leave it" and this will teach Daisy not to be pushy about the treats in your hand. 10 months is very young and impressionable. Clickers are great because they identify the behavior as it happens and the dog recognizes the clicker thus the correct behavior along with getting a treat. Though a "good girl" and treat will work well too. You know your dog, trust your instincts on what is best for her!

[Judi W]

Well, when I end up with an instructor that is recommending something that I do not want for my dog, I just smile and nod, and keep on doing what I am doing. Now, if a student's progress is waaay behind the other dogs, the instructor might rightly object, but if you are where you need to be. just remember, "smile and nod".... :D

[Carina43]

livertw, I posted a similar question here a couple of months ago. I was wondering if the very positive reinforcement/treat oriented training facility I was taking Cooper to was conditioning him to "expect" a treat every time.

Based on the replies I got here, and talking to the trainers at the school, I am totally in favor of treat training for my pup. I'm gradually weaning him off treats (though I'm still using them for new commands & occasional reinforcement.)

I say stick with what is working. Cooper does not seem to feel insulted if I don't give him a treat, he obeys happily. And of course I give him tons of praise. :)

[Judi W]

The secret is learning how to make the reward variable. Then, usually, there does arrive a point where a bit of compulsion comes in so that it is "obedience" not "if you're hungry", but very little compulsion is needed with a dog that is trained with motivation.

[luvarott]

Food CAN be used as a bribe that the dog comes to depend on to obey. What you need to do is move it away from being a visible lure to a reward....and then move the food off your body and into a container that is close to where you are working.
Look on food as being a "paycheque" for a job well done. I wouldn't work just for praise and I don't expect my dogs to either. I use lots of cookies in training with my dogs. But I expect them to do as I ask of them whether a cookie is there or not. You get there by using the variable reinforcement principle that Judy mentioned and also by creating a "bridge". The basis of clicker training is that the dog learns to work to get the "click", the click is a form of bridge, because it means the cookie is coming/is intimately associated with the "paycheque". I use a word instead of a clicker for most of my competitive training, because I can take my voice into a ring, but not a clicker.

[lblax]

food is a good way to teach the behavior but the actuall behavior is learned very quicky and most people dont realize that. lets use sit for example, take the treat and slowly from your dogs nose raise it over his forehead and backwards (after) your pup sits give hime the treat and say sit with lots of praise and he will asscotiatethe action to the command keep repeating this 10 15 times till he looks like hes got it- this is the learning stage then move to the correction stage with dog on leash say sit and give straight up correction pop do this 4 times with lots of praise and start limiting treats on the 5th time just say sit if he does it he has learned it and move on to next obediance thing you are working on the next stage after working on this is proofing NO TREATS tell you dog what to do and be quick with the praise or corections but dont expect too much from a young dog you work him every day for the next year and you will be pleased. i always train before the evening meal this leads to good feild work good meal ;)

[Burnsway]

Originally posted by lblax:
<STRONG>food is a good way to teach the behavior but the actuall behavior is learned very quicky and most people dont realize that.

i always train before the evening meal this leads to good feild work good meal ;)</STRONG>

ROFLMAO!!! One time I took Psyche out to a field and she was being so responsive doing everything just perfect... :D I couldn't figure out why she was being perfect, Psyche is never perfect...lol. Well when I got home I found out that my hubby had not fed the dogs yet...

We now train befor feeding time....lol

As luvarott said, Very few of us would ever work for free so why should we expect a dog to do it. Now Psyche a lot of the times will do commands that she knows well for her favorite toy or even praise but for new commands I will always use treats... :D