Hey guys, first post here. Need some help, been disciplining my Rott w/ spankings :(

[BigZeus]

Hello people. It's nice to see there's a forum out here dedicated to these wonderful dogs. In short, I'm a 26 yr old who is a proud owner of my very first dog Zeus. He is a pure bred, with papers German Rott. 9 months old now, and 110 lbs of solid puppy and sweet heart :D

Since I've never personally owned a dog, albeit always wanted one I've always been put under the impression by others that sometimes physical discipline was necessary in teaching your dog right & wrong. So, as Zeus was growing (I got him @ 9 weeks), I often used spanking as a type of discipline for him not listening to the "come" command while we were outside and/or messing in the house. Usually I would only spank when he'd take off, or ignore my repeated commands to come back to me. I ALWAYS gave him positive attention when he listened, but sometimes he would just completely ignore me. A couple of his spankings were REALLY bad, as I somewhat took my anger out on him for things he did wrong.

Now, I feel so f'ing terrible about it :( . I never really knew that there's so many other ways to train a dog for both positive and negative behavior besides beating the hell out of them when they did wrong. Now Zeus will cower (sp?) down to me if he knows he did something wrong and I approach him. I do NOT spank him anymore, I just love on him and tell him what he did was wrong usually by pointing and saying "No" in a normal voice. I stopped the spanking at 5 months old because of this, and have tried to use positive reinforcement.

What should I do about this? My Zeus is a sweetheart and very gentle beast who loves me and my 3 yr old son to death. I don't want him to fear me, or do I to some extent? I also do not want him to feel like he has to cower down to me when he does something wrong. I feel as though I'm terrifying him by him acting this way and I would never want that.

Any help/advice/input is appreciated. Looking forward to future postings & readings on this board. Thanks guys!!

-Josh

[moondog]

Originally Posted by BigZeus

Now, I feel so f'ing terrible about it :( .

Well, I have to give you credit where credit is due. It takes a big man to admit this, and of course, that's the first step.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

Now Zeus will cower (sp?) down to me if he knows he did something wrong and I approach him. I do NOT spank him anymore, I just love on him and tell him what he did was wrong usually by pointing and saying "No" in a normal voice.

By "loving on him" when he's cowering, you are teaching him that cowering is what you want. So he's complying. This you need to stop doing, right now. When he cowers, completing ignore the behavior. Don't even look at him. What is he doing "wrong" that needs punishment? A little more detail, and perhaps we can help with specific instances.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

I don't want him to fear me, or do I to some extent? I also do not want him to feel like he has to cower down to me when he does something wrong. I feel as though I'm terrifying him by him acting this way and I would never want that.

NO...your dog shouldn't fear you. He should respect you, and he should TRUST you (that's what's going to need rebuilding), but no, there's absolutely no reason you should want him to fear you. He sounds like a good boy.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

What should I do about this? My Zeus is a sweetheart and very gentle beast who loves me and my 3 yr old son to death.

I would suggest you keep reading, reading, READING here, and also find a positive reinforcement training class and take him to it where you can get hands on help with repairing your relationship with him.

Give us your zip code and perhaps someone knows of a good POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT trainer in your area, or we can find you some trainers to check out.

[BigZeus]

Thanks for the response Moondog.

What I mean by him cowering after doing something wrong is something like, him repeatedly ignoring my calls for him to come if he's ran across the yard to my neighbors house. When I come to get him after him not listening, he'll know he should have listened and cowers down to me when we meet. Or, if he's chewing on the carpet or something in the house and I go to point at the carpet and tell him know, he'll cower backwards slightly thinking I'm going to smack him.

I definitely do NOT want that. Second to my son, Zeus is my best buddy in the whole world and he IS a GREAT boy. Loves my son, VERY gentle, knows his nibbling/biting limits on pressure, lets me know when he needs to go outside, doesn't bark hardly at ALL, etc etc. Probably the most well behaved dog i've ever seen considering my lack of training knowledge/ability. I've gotten better, but could definitely use some pointers.

My Zip is 30019. Dacula, GA

[tcote]

My trainer is not too far from you..she is very good with large breeds... alot of positive reinforcement in training class....she also does Sunday afternoon classes... Dawsonville, GA 30534..you should be able to google and find her....

[FilosFolks]

Originally Posted by BigZeus

Thanks for the response Moondog.

What I mean by him cowering after doing something wrong is something like, him repeatedly ignoring my calls for him to come if he's ran across the yard to my neighbors house. When I come to get him after him not listening, he'll know he should have listened and cowers down to me when we meet. Or, if he's chewing on the carpet or something in the house and I go to point at the carpet and tell him know, he'll cower backwards slightly thinking I'm going to smack him.

I think in addition to the above, go back to the basics with your recall. Have lots of goodies and good boys when he comes SO HE"LL WANT TO.

Start in the house, call the name, treat, repeat. Lots of love! Then try outside, and if you don't have a fence I'd find a long line or leash and repeat. Trust and confidence is invaluable and if he has access to another yard or house isn't that your responsibility too?

Really does sound like a good boy that is more than willing to please you and THAT is quite a gift. Good luck!

Ailee

[Weily4Life]

OMG! This makes me cry. I am not really sure what to say, you may have surely destroyed this dog.

Why would Zeus want to listen to you or come when called when there is the possibility of him being whacked when he does come. Spanking is not discipline, it is corporal punishment. Discipline is training and practice to produce specific patterns of behavior. You have not trained Zeus to know the behaviour you expect. Dogs are like children, they need to be taught the expected behaviour to be successful. Zeus is cowering, so yes he fears you.

We rescued our Greta when she was 14 m.o. and she was most likely beaten by her previous owner. We spent many hours and days desensitizing her. It took her a while to trust people and to see her truly smile and to see her rump wiggle with joy. She is now 5 years old and is still occasionally hand shy. Story has it that "she would not listen to the previous owner" she would not come when called. Greta has been scarred for life by her previous owner.

The only advice I can offer is to not raise your hand to him anymore. This is not the way to train him and is setting a poor example for your son, and go to obedience training. I don't spank a living creatures-animal or human, so have not had the need to rehabilate as your situation presents. Maybe someone else here has some insight.

[Weily4Life]

It sounds like you've gotten some good advice while I was trying to compose myself and write my previous message. You really are a stand up guy for coming here and admitting your mistake.

[Sasha's Mom]

I'm shocked. How could you SPANK a little puppy? That's completely heartless. You may have ruined any possibility for a lasting bond between you two, and your pup's respect for you.
Perhaps you need anger management?!!!

It's about time you realised that hitting a dog is NOT the way, but it might be a little too late..... I don't know, I've never hit any animal.

Please use a lot of time to do research on what IS the proper way of raising a dog.

[Zumie05]

Physical discipline for teaching the command to "come" is one of the worst things to do, only because it will usually only make your dog want to avoid you and run away from you even more. When teaching your dog to come, you have to make them think that it is sooooo worth it to get over to you as fast as they can! Otherwise if you say come and then they later on get a spanking for it, they learn that coming to you when you say "come" usually is a scary and bad thing.

I agree with moondog that it really does take a big man to admit faults like this. It is definitely a good thing that you found this website!

To teach a good recall start all over again as if your pup was brand new. Start small and work your way big. Get a 20 or 30 ft training leash and use this to practice. Let your dog run out to the end, then call him back (I suggest using a different word than come now...try "here" instead). If dog isn't listening, use leash to reel him in while continuing to encourage him to move on his own. Even if you end up having to pull your dog the entire way back to you, still praise as if he ran to you with full energy. Give out multiple treats, pets, and praise. Practice in many different locations and work with a variety of distractions to proof this command. Pretty soon the dog will learn that it is a great thing to get over to you when you call him and you won't need that leash anymore to reel him in.

[BigZeus]

Some of you need to chill a little. I have never "beaten" my dog, nor did I ever spank him as a very small puppy.

OMG! This makes me cry. I am not really sure what to say, you may have surely destroyed this dog.

Far from it. Zeus is perfectly fine, and probably the most well-behaved Rott I have ever been around. I may have created a lack of trust or fear in him when it comes to his discipline, but he shows no love loss for me what so ever. He stays at my side 24/7.

Thanks for the input guys. I think some of you have misunderstood what I mean by "spanking". I haven't beat the $hit out of this dog, sorry if thats the way it came across. And FWIW, there's a LOT of people I know with dogs who use spanking as punishment.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by BigZeus

What I mean by him cowering after doing something wrong is something like, him repeatedly ignoring my calls for him to come if he's ran across the yard to my neighbors house. When I come to get him after him not listening, he'll know he should have listened and cowers down to me when we meet. Or, if he's chewing on the carpet or something in the house and I go to point at the carpet and tell him know, he'll cower backwards slightly thinking I'm going to smack him.

In order for him to understand what you want, you need to show him.

He doesn't know to come when called...if he did, he would. He cowers because he senses your anger, not because he knows why you are angry. He should be kept on a lead while you work with him on his recall. That way, you can reel him in if he doesn't respond, so he SUCCEEDS in accomplishing what you want him to do. He should be rewarded for coming with something he really loves, whether it be a piece of chicken or a game of tug, or a toss of a ball. It has to be rewarding for him to come to you, more rewarding than what he's giving up to do it....otherwise, why should he come? You need to condition his recall by setting him up to succeed, not fail.....so you CAN reward him....and I would reward him HIGHLY for any effort. If he thinks you are the best game in town, he will come FLYING to you. It's your job to convince him you are.

Switching from punishing him to loving on him is only reinforcing the cowering. It doesn't help him when you swing from one end of the pendulum clear to the other...he's trying to please you, but he doesn't know how in this situation because he doesn't understand what you want.

As for chewing things you don't want him to chew.....chewing is a dog's way of relaxing and eliminating stress and that's a good thing. However, he doesn't know what he's supposed to be chewing, because he hasn't been shown...so show him. When he starts to chew the carpet, say "Ah! Leave it! C'mon, Zeus, let's go get your bone!" and give him something he CAN chew (a bone, a toy, a nylabone, etc.). Move him to a different place, away from what he's not supposed to chew and praise him for chewing what you give him to chew...."GOOD Boy!" You do have to be consistent and always supervising for the best success. If you do that, he'll learn just by redirection what he's allowed to chew and what he's not.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

Second to my son, Zeus is my best buddy in the whole world and he IS a GREAT boy. Loves my son, VERY gentle, knows his nibbling/biting limits on pressure, lets me know when he needs to go outside, doesn't bark hardly at ALL, etc etc. Probably the most well behaved dog i've ever seen considering my lack of training knowledge/ability. I've gotten better, but could definitely use some pointers.

He sounds like a VERY tolerant, wonderful dog with a great temperament. He just needs a benevolent leader (that's you ) instead of what must appear to him to be someone who behaves erratically for some unknown reason. That's why we spend the time to train our dogs - so they will understand, and we won't be erratic and confusing to them.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

Some of you need to chill a little. I have never "beaten" my dog, nor did I ever spank him as a very small puppy.

Well, it did sound like it from your first post. And.....you don't have to "beat" a dog to be too harsh with them. How a dog responds to correction will depend on the dog, and yours sounds like a dog that doesn't need much correction....he sounds like he will catch on quickly if you are just consistent with teaching him what he CAN do, rather than punishing him for what he can't.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

Zeus is perfectly fine, and probably the most well-behaved Rott I have ever been around. I may have created a lack of trust or fear in him when it comes to his discipline, but he shows no love loss for me what so ever. He stays at my side 24/7.

I have no doubt of his loyalty to you, but he isn't "perfectly fine". If he was, he wouldn't cower whenever he needed to be redirected/corrected. You have some damage control that needs to occur to repair your relationship with him. You need to learn how to set him up to succeed, so you can reward rather than punish. That's why I think a class is important, so you can learn that. Training classes are more for us people, to teach us how to work with our dogs, than they are for the dogs themselves. This is what you need.

Originally Posted by BigZeus

And FWIW, there's a LOT of people I know with dogs who use spanking as punishment.

Well, it's not worth much.....they are WRONG. Just because a lot of people do it is a far cry from making it the thing to do. Dog training has come out of the dark ages, and using positive reinforcement to teach a dog before any corrections are introduced has proved very, very effective and results in dogs that are happy, understand the world around them, what's expected of them, and their place in it.

Originally Posted by tcote

My trainer is not too far from you..she is very good with large breeds... alot of positive reinforcement in training class....she also does Sunday afternoon classes... Dawsonville, GA 30534..you should be able to google and find her....

You can give her name and contact info here - it's okay to give trainer recommendations.

[debbiej]

teach your pup. he has no idea what you expect of him until you show him. poor thing.

[Anne]

Please take the advice given and find a positive reinforcement trainer to teach you how to train your dog. Zeus is cowering because he's afraid of you and you've given him good reason. I don't get how anyone can hit a dog, especially a puppy and at 5 months of age when you say you stopped hitting Zeus, he was definitely a puppy. He still is a puppy at 9 months of age.

Now that you're aware that you were doing most things wrong you will need to undo the damage you have done by starting from the beginning. At least you're on the right track now and I wish you and Zeus well.

Since he is papered you evidently bought him from a registered breeder. Did the breeder not speak with you about training and care of the puppy? My intentions about training was one of the first questions my breeder asked me along with many other questions that I was happy to answer.

BTW unless you imported your puppy from Germany you have an American Rottweiler. My Rottweiler is fully papered from excellent lines and she is an Australian Rottweiler because she was born in Australia.

[BigZeus]

Moondog, thanks for all the constructive criticism. I definitely need it! I'm soaking up all these answers.

Anne, from what I understand Zeus's parents were actually imported from Germany. The guy I got Zeus from was full blooded German, and bred dogs over there. Moved to this country 4 years ago, etc etc..So, I guess him being born here makes him an "American" Rott, even though his parents were born in Germany? Hmm, interesting.

To answer your question about his recommendations on training, he didn't give me many. If he did I wasn't listening cause I was too excited about getting Zeus. And, this breeder had more Rott's in one place than I've ever seen in my life. I was more shell-shocked than anything. There was 6 males (HUGE, Zeus's dad was 155 lbs and SOLID), 4 females, and probably 20+ puppies. Looked like a Rotty farm lol

And again, to reinforce my miscommunication I haven't tortured my dog or beat him down like I might have came across. A spanking across the behind or maybe a thump on the nose for chewing the carpet was all. But fortunately for me, Zeus is a very passive & sensitive and this kind of stuff has hurt his feelings. I just need CONSTRUCTIVE criticism on how to fix it.

Thanks again everyone. I'm enjoying this.

[CanineCoach]

I don't think your dog is "ruined" -- just like most people, he hasn't had a perfect start in life. You can make this up to him, though it will take more time than if you had started out doing it correctly. Dogs are very forgiving and accepting of us poor, dumb humans!

Remember, he doesn't understand English, so your job is to teach him what words YOU associate with what actions. And then reward profusely when he gets it right or even makes an attempt in the right direction. Lots and lots of repetition, lots and lots of positive reinforcement -- praise, treats, play time, etc. I think of it as "lifestyle training" meaning that any time you are interacting with Zeus, you are training. Just be very conscious of the message you are wanting to send. Additionally, set aside some time each day to focus on specific behaviors, recall, sit, down, loose leash walking. Get into some classes with a good positive trainer. Hone your observation skills; learn to "read" his body language and remember that he already has your body language memorized. He's not reacting so much to what you are saying as he is to what your showing him with your facial expressions, movements, attitude. Read, read, read! You can do this! And you won't believe how this will improve your parenting skills as well! As with parentlng, even the best can learn and improve. Good luck and I'm so happy you've realized there is a better way. Behavioral studies have proven to you that we achieve more with a carrot than we do with a stick.