Shock collar concerns

[BluHeronHorses]

Hi. I'm new. And new to the online forum thing as well. I'm looking for some advice ... Just fyi I suppose, I am a horse trainer and a big fan of dogs but I'm not a dog trainer. A surgical tech at my dog vet's hospital teaches doggy obedience and I've taken classes with her so I can learn the basics. It's a really nice, kind class, similar really to the way I train my horses - repetition and positive reinforcement -and we've had great success with it.

Anyway, down to the question at hand. My parents recently bought a rottweiler puppy, their third. They decided to take her to obedience class - they are NOT animal people - the first formally trained dog they will have had. They use my vet and he made several recommendations to them regarding raising puppy, etc.

They had a consultation with a trainer who will go to their house. They liked her, told me they liked her, and then said she'll only train the dog using a shock collar. The pup is now 3 months old. I advised them against - because she's only 3 months old and hasn't had any real training, she's super bright and very sweet, willing, all that. They mentioned it to the vet who said abseloutely do not use this trainer, go to traditional obedience first. Vet said he'd never use one on his own dog and said it was cruel to use one on a puppy.

I try to not rule out anyone's ideas but I think you should take the easiest, kindest route first and if that's not working, step up the way you ask. And obviously if you have a dog with behavioural problems, that's an entirely different basket.

My problem is this - they've been shocking this puppy for 5 weeks now. She just passed 3 months old. They're under a contract with their breeder regarding care and whatnot. Her contract stipulates that they go to obedience class, but not what kind. I feel like I should tell her what is going on with her puppy, she obviously cared very much who took her dogs. How common is this in the dog world? To call somethign cruel is pretty strong language from my vet.

thanks much.

[IJF1]

My opinion:

-Ecollars are not cruel - bad training can be.
-In teaching a pup I like to make obedience fun. Lots of +R and only -P (or extinction) where needed.
-I would not put an e-collar on a 3 month old pup.
-I would be wary of any trainer who only used one tool.

[hokisteph5]

OMG, that poor puppy is the first thought that comes to my mind.

If you do a search of the forums, you'll find more than enough threads about shock collars and their pros and cons. Here's one to get you started - thread link

I'm not necessarily against them, but for me I would use one as a last resort. I certainly wouldn't use one on a puppy.

ETA: When I was first reading this thread, another thread came to mind. Please tell me your parents' trainer isn't from Sit Means Sit Dog Training.

[BluHeronHorses]

Well hokisteph actually she is.

I can't say I'd ever rule out a shock collar, I mean my lab needs a prong collar when she gets wired. We tried 3 years without one. Similarly, I can't say I'd never use spurs on a horse or a chain on its nose, sometimes that happens. But I give them a whole lot of chances to get it right asking the nice way first.

My vet was really surprised (I nearly said shocked) to hear that someone would even propose such a thing.

The creepy thing is that, in my view at least, she's put the notion into their heads that the dog is difficult and willful, whatever that means. She's a kid - that's what they do right?

Thanks for the info - it's much appreciated

[Nishasmom]

Oh no...poor puppy :(

Puppies are bad b/c they do not know any better. You have to first teach them (through positive reinforcement) how to behave. I have never used an E-collar, but I wouldn't until much later in life (and ONLY if there was a certain issue that could not be fixed through positive training). Perhaps the breeder can recommend a better trainer.

Your parents are teaching the puppy that learning = pain. Learning should be FUN!! Every time I get out the "clicker" my dog comes to "attention". She absolutely loves learning; her whole attitude changes...she becomes very intent on pleasing me. Shocking a puppy causes frustration...this is what he is thinking: "sit...what the heck does sit mean...oh no, if I don't figure it out soon I will be hurt...AH!! What should I do...shock ???" (well, thats my opinion at least).

When I train w/ my dog she thinks "sit...hmmm, let me try as many things as possible...if I do it right, I get a reward !". No anxiousness there, just WANTING to learn.

[AngelBunny]

If you read thru the postings in Training you'll find repeated mention of finding a trainer with working dog experience who uses positive reinforcement. Not once will you find a recommendation to seek out a trainer who uses E-collars on puppies.

Your parents didn't do enough research before hiring their trainer. I say this because of your comment she'll only train the dog using a shock collar.

The mark of a good trainer--one who knows what he or she is doing--is ability to tailor the training to suit the dog.

The fact the trainer they're using has one and only one method and approach indicates she's a poor trainer. One size doesn't fit all.

And the fact she's brainwashed your parents into believing that willful and difficult are bad things in a Rottie clearly shows she knows nothing about the breed.

(Of course Rotties are willful! They were bred to herd cattle and sheep (w/o working hand in glove with a handler like BCs do), something they did by force of character and determination, not size.)

You said your parents liked her. Why did they like her?

I find the whole sitatuation sad and depressing.

Owners who have a breed of dog they clearly don't understand working with a bad trainer who also doesn't understand the breed.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

You said your parents liked her. Why did they like her?

Let me hazard a guess.....because she was oh so smooth in her sales technique and convinced these people that all their "problems" could be solved with a simple press of a button!......BUTTON!!.....BUTTON!!!?

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

I can't say I'd ever rule out a shock collar, I mean my lab needs a prong collar when she gets wired. We tried 3 years without one. Similarly, I can't say I'd never use spurs on a horse or a chain on its nose, sometimes that happens. But I give them a whole lot of chances to get it right asking the nice way first.

I'm a horse person, too. Let me ask you something.....would you use a chain on the nose of a FOAL? I doubt it....you realize a foal is a baby, and so is a 3 month old puppy!

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

The creepy thing is that, in my view at least, she's put the notion into their heads that the dog is difficult and willful, whatever that means. She's a kid - that's what they do right?

Any Rottie puppy worth its salt is a rascal. Note I said RASCAL. They are full of life and full of enthusiasm for experiencing it. To try and zap that out of a puppy truly just makes me want to cry.

GET THEM AWAY from that "trainer" and with someone who will help them raise this little puppy without zapping the joy out of her. Please.

[BluHeronHorses]

Truthfully I'd have to say that they like her because my stepmother, with whom I unfortunately have never gotten on well, likes her. My stepmother, who has no children and has never liked animals other than cats, has got hooked on the idea that you have to 'show' the dog you're the 'alpha dog.'

On the alpha thing - like the phrase survival of the fittest - it has been misused so many times for so long that people fundamentally misunderstand the idea and it fosters the notion, in my opinion, that one must dominate one's animals. I think it is more accurate and more sensible to refer to leader/follower or active/reactive relationships. But that's just me.

I'm heartbroken over this. I've always been really close to my dad and now I don't even speak to him. I love the dog, I want to help her. Obviously it's complicated because of the family thing. I'm speaking to the vet about it again tonight.

I'm glad though that I wasn't way off the mark throwing my ideas about dog training out there when I know almost nothing about it ... The honey and vinegar analogy works for training too I think.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

My stepmother, who has no children and has never liked animals other than cats......

Why did they get a dog if she doesn't like them? I will venture to say this is a DISASTER in the making.

[BluHeronHorses]

He likes dogs. She started liking the last one when she was about 7. And slow. She likes quiet, obedient, supplicant. Peeing on the floor, waking up in the middle of the night, needing love ... those are not her things.

So I suppose it turns into a different question and that is what do you do? My horse vet dismisses people from their practice for things like that. Don't know if the small animal guys do the same. I'm at a total loss. You can't report your family to a show steward and have them fined or suspended for what they do with their dog.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

She likes quiet, obedient, supplicant.

Well, it's a darn shame she doesn't like character, because that's one of the most priceless assets natural to a Rottweiler. As far as supplicant goes, I've never met a dog yet that prayed to God. Although this one might start after a few more months of being zapped. Either that, or she'll decide she's had enough and start fighting back.

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

So I suppose it turns into a different question and that is what do you do?

Unless you are willing to work on your Dad, there's nothing you can do unless there is some sort of documentable abuse.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

...My stepmother,...has never liked animals other than cats, has got hooked on the idea that you have to 'show' the dog you're the 'alpha dog.'

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and in the case of her puppy, unfortunately, a painful thing.

Your stepmother doesn't have a dog, she has a puppy. Strong arming and brutalizing a baby is cruel and narrowminded.

I think you should encourage both your father and his wife to come here. If she refuses, send your father here. Once he learns what he and his wife are doing to their puppy is wrong, it it his responsibility to step in and protect his puppy from harsh, unnecesary treatment.

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

...I'm speaking to the vet about it again tonight.

Unless the vet has some sway with your father and his wife, I don't think that will help as much as talking to the puppy's breeder.

I think you should alert puppy's breeder.

(Tho I have to wonder how much help that will be. With you stepmother having the attitude and likes and dislikes she does, I question the quality of the breeder who would sell one of his or her puppies to a person as ill-informed as your stepmother. However, it's worth making the phone call, I think.)

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

...I'm glad though that I wasn't way off the mark throwing my ideas about dog training out there when I know almost nothing about it ....

You know more than you think.

Good luck.

[BluHeronHorses]

AngelBunny -
Thanks for the info - but in defense of the breeder, she spoke just with me and Dad and met with us for several hours in person before hand. Our worst quality with dogs is not teaching them enough, so I thought the classes would be great. I mean, I know how to I've copied all of your responses from here and given them to my mom to give to him. It gets complicated when we don't speak to each other lol.

[IJF1]

I really would not recommend SMS for training an adult, let alone a puppy. They are a franchise and the franchise operators really do not need to know much about training a dog......

Everything a puppy does is right....to the puppy. They do not know any better. The puppy needs to be taught what is right (praise and reward) and wrong (ignore, redirect and/or withold reward). There is just no need to be physically correcting such a young pup IMO.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by BluHeronHorses

AngelBunny...in defense of the breeder, she spoke just with me and Dad and met with us for several hours in person before hand.

When you get this mess with that poor puppy squared away, take some time and read thru the postings in Breeding.

What you learn about COE, bona fide, responsible breeders may be eye opening.