Spray Commander, remote control training system

[Lola B Marie]

I always said, that when all else failed preventing Lola's dog aggression, I would go reluctantly, to an E collar. She bit my son in a frenzy when she saw another dog and went crazy. She has been trained, re trained and then some.
My vet, who truly loves her, has to empty his waiting room of other dogs just to bring her to get a nail trim. Once inside with the team, she is all love and kisses. He never has to muzzle her, she never growls but, let one other dog near her and the teeth come out and the drool flows. She cannot be reached when she is in that zone. She bit my son last week while she was in a frenzy and that was the last straw. Her tooth went right through his thumb when he attempted to correct her. She was so sorry after he screamed, she had diarrhea all the way home.
It was a professional decision by the trainer and the vet, to get an E collar. I went on line to order it and found this spray system as a choice. More humane, no danger to dog and it worked so well the first two times I couldn't believe it.
Lola saw another dog, started to go crazy I said no, attempted to do the drill to get her attention.No reaction on her part. I said no one more time and pressed the remote. She got a spray from the collar and she calmed right down. The next dog she saw, she needed 2 sprays to calm down . We walked a little further near a house where 2 goldens were getting in their car. As Lola was about to lunge, I stated a firm no. She looked at me and stayed focused to see if I was going to make the spray happen. When she didn't go crazy, we had a party right in the street. She had a piece of hot dog and pettings and kisses.
When we got home, I kept her outside, leashed next to me. We waited for the boxers two doors down to go for a walk. She started to act out, she got a spray and immediately sat. A true Lola miracle!!
Any comments about this system would be appreciated.

[poohbearsmom]

I'm interested in knowing what the spray has in it. As well, what was your reasoning for getting this remote collar over say, a Dogtra or Tritronics?

[poohbearsmom]

Aaaaah.... citronella.

They sure do a good job of making an e collar sound scary. lol

If you've ever had physical therapy, and used a TNS unit, that is what an e collar feels like. It's not a "shock", like if you stuck your wet finger into an electrical outlet. It can be more humane than a citronella collar, IMHO.

So, I have another question: what happens when Lola figures out it only smells bad?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

but, let one other dog near her and the teeth come out and the drool flows. She cannot be reached when she is in that zone. She was so sorry after he screamed, she had diarrhea all the way home.
Lola saw another dog, started to go crazy I said no, attempted to do the drill to get her attention.No reaction on her part. I.

your dog has never conuered this is because you wait until she is in the zone to try to do something once theve already commited to the other dog its to late you should have always made corrections of diversions before she had a chance to key on the other animals

a dog that gets diareha after an incident like this isnt sorry for what happened only human can be sorry your dog went beyond what its nerve capability is

and last it will only be a short time before she is use to the citronella the citronella bark collars dont work except at 1st and niether will this collar.

[Lola B Marie]

I think it is just the element of wet surprise that is redirecting her attention. Once she snaps out of the frenzy,she is willing to sit and collect her reward. The amount of citronella must be very small because I didn't smell any on her or when I sprayed her. She only got the short spray so far. The choices are , short spray, longer spray and a soft tone to use during good behavior. When she calmed down and sat, I pressed the tone option and gave the reward. My aim is to eventually have her at a place where she will see another dog and instead of going crazy, will sit and wait for a treat as opposed to getting a spray in the face. Well I can dream can't I? LOL
You mentioned two other products in your response. I am not familiar with either one. I wanted a remote because, we take Lola on the beach almost every day and this works up to 250 feet away. Most of the dogs on the beach are so well behaved. I am always embarassed by her behavior. She is only off leash when no one is around. Now, providing this is the answer, she will not be as nasty when she sees another dog and I won't have to be as nervous if a dog does appear in the distance.
This is all very new, I'll keep you posted. Thanks for responding.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

When she calmed down and sat, I pressed the tone option and gave the reward. Now, providing this is the answer, she will not be as nasty when she sees another dog and I won't have to be as nervous if a dog does appear in the distance.
This is all very new, I'll keep you posted. Thanks for responding.

lets see you waited until she was in a frenzy then sprayed her and after she calmed you rewarded her??? what do you think she learned by that???? she learned that she can do what she wants endur a little spray and then get rewarded for her bad behaviour. you should only reward her if she doesnt go off on the other dog.

I won't have to be as nervous if a dog does appear in the distance.

this is one big reason she does it your tension goes right down the leash into her head.

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

Any comments about this system would be appreciated.

we tried it in flyball for chasing...bear never hurt any dogs but he did think it was play time - they did not.

Anyway it basically shut him down completely so even a "harmless" tool is not right for every dog. My worry with any correction with aggression is that if she's corrected for "thinking" about doing somehting eventually she may stop showing the warning signs...of thinking about it and just lose it out of the blue.

[jazzking1971]

you're trying to correct the dog at the wrong time. If your dog looks at another dog for more than a glance then it's time to distract it. Make him look at you or and give him a pop.

Do you have a leave it command?

You don't need an ecollar if you pay attention to your dog and understand basic dog behavior enough to correct at the appropriate time.

---- just went back and glanced through the thread. lblax is right.

[s1960]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

I think it is just the element of wet surprise that is redirecting her attention. Once she snaps out of the frenzy,she is willing to sit and collect her reward. The amount of citronella must be very small because I didn't smell any on her or when I sprayed her. She only got the short spray so far. The choices are , short spray, longer spray and a soft tone to use during good behavior. When she calmed down and sat, I pressed the tone option and gave the reward. My aim is to eventually have her at a place where she will see another dog and instead of going crazy, will sit and wait for a treat as opposed to getting a spray in the face. Well I can dream can't I? LOL
You mentioned two other products in your response. I am not familiar with either one. I wanted a remote because, we take Lola on the beach almost every day and this works up to 250 feet away. Most of the dogs on the beach are so well behaved. I am always embarassed by her behavior. She is only off leash when no one is around. Now, providing this is the answer, she will not be as nasty when she sees another dog and I won't have to be as nervous if a dog does appear in the distance.
This is all very new, I'll keep you posted. Thanks for responding.

Tritronics and Dogtra are the two best brands of Ecollar. Read what Lblax is telling you, I think you've accidently reinforced the bad behavior. Don't reward her until she is avoiding looking at another dog on her own and hopefully looking to you. One nice thing to think about with an ecollar is you can give a correction without showing any emotion, nice and calm on your end. The timing can be easier and when she knows what the correction is for you can use a low enough level that people probably won't even know whats going on.

[Lola B Marie]

Thanks for the input. This was a last resort because two trainers and her vet, had no more options for us. We have most all of her other proplems under control. She has had trainers since she was 4 months old when we got her. She listens well and will obey commands like sit stay, come here, she poops on command,leave it, drop it etc. She does have to go through the drills every day. While on leash, she walks right next to me. She does not pull and will sit at any time during the walk.
The main trainer we work with is from the police academy. When she is working with him on dog aggression she is fair at best. He brought his well behaved retired partner with him. This was a beautiful lg lay back shepard. We took turns walking him on the other side of the street so the trainer could experience what was going on. He made all the necessary corrections, did the focus exercise and still, he could not control her . She went crazy and she attempted to bite him. I can't control this animal at all when she goes crazy. He is not in favor of the E collar at all. He said he has never had to use one in all his years of training. He also said that aggression issues needed to be addressed much earlier in her puppy hood. Since she was imported from Hungary, I have no idea what happened to her before she got here.
Yes I agree with all of the above responses, comments and suggestions. I just wish I had joined this site way before I got her from a pet shop. She was an impulse decision after waiting to meet a rescue dog that we were expecting to adopt. The dog was put down do to food aggression issues and failed a temperment test with children. Still sad after loosing my heart dog, Sheena Marie Rott, after 10 years, I went to a puppy store to just hold a rottie. The rest as they say is history.
Day two of the spray training is going well. I took her to the parking lot where the dogs get out of their cars on leash to enter the dog park. I walked her around there. She only needed one spray and then responded to the firm NO command. Each time she looked at another dog after that, she looked at me first, sat and got a piece of hot dog. I hope this is working the way it should. Please feel free to offer any harsh thoughts you think might help. I am not on the defensive, just looking to keep my girl any way possible.

[lblax]

i think you need to look for a qualified trainer i cant believe that a trainer ran out of ideas on working with dog agression. just because someone handles or trains police dogs doesnt mean they are a good trainer and usually it means just the opposite(if we had a couple days i could give you example after example) an even though the dog he brought looked laid back it still had to have some attitude to it or it simply woulfnt have been a good police dog other dogs pick up on the attitude of other dogs when we cann not. i dont know how long youve been working with this but from what i can tell many mistakes have been made along the way you have a long road ahead of you and sometimes it cant be accomplished and in your case if it cant be it wouldnt be that bad of a time to keep the dog out of the situation since it is not people aggressive

[Nishasmom]

Have you tried a prong collar? This seems more humane than spraying a dog in the face IMO. Although I have never used a citronella collar. What happens if it gets in his eyes?? Also, who wants to be reliant on a spray all the time. With a prong you can gradually "wean" off the corrections, and replace them with verbal commands (leave-it).

A prong would be better b/c YOU can control the harshness of the correction according to each specific event. Example: You may do a light correction, then a hard one, then a light one all in one day.

[Rottlva]

Boy it really seems as though she has a hard time being around other dogs. There has to be a point where she is not aroused around them, even if it is 1000 ft away. I am confused why no one has worked her at the distance she is comfortable and non reactive, and slowly, even if it is 1inch/month, decreased her reactive distance?

You have to understand that each and every time she reacts, she learns that it works. Dogs enjoy instant gratification.....Making her walk past other dogs does nothing but cause her to use her coping mechanisim, aggression....Why put her in a place where she has to feel as though she needs to be defensive????? I understand you can't always avoid other dogs, but quite honestly, I would try my absolute hardest until you have worked harder to desensitize her to them.

She learns absolutely nothing when she is so aroused, and I surely doubt that you can break though it!!! The fact that she is biting someone when they touch her while aroused tells me just how aroused she is!! My fear with the e-collar is not that it won't work, but with her arousal level, she will react through it. I honestly wouldn't work her on it until you have desensitzed her, even at very, very remote distances. Remember where do you go when the e collar doesn't work?????

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by lblax

i think you need to look for a qualified trainer i cant believe that a trainer ran out of ideas on working with dog agression. just because someone handles or trains police dogs doesnt mean they are a good trainer and usually it means just the opposite(if we had a couple days i could give you example after example) an even though the dog he brought looked laid back it still had to have some attitude to it or it simply woulfnt have been a good police dog other dogs pick up on the attitude of other dogs when we cann not. i dont know how long youve been working with this but from what i can tell many mistakes have been made along the way you have a long road ahead of you and sometimes it cant be accomplished and in your case if it cant be it wouldnt be that bad of a time to keep the dog out of the situation since it is not people aggressive

This dog IS people aggressive...if you read her post the dog bit her son right through his thumb while she was in a frenzy.

I also remember that the OP called "Bark Busters" and they came over to train this out of control dog. The OP thought Bark Busters was just great...and was recommending this franchise to everyone. I guess throwing chains,etc., does not work??

I agree the OP needs real help, and until she get's a trainer that can help her this dog is dangerous to other dogs out in public...and could harm a person if she is in a frenzy.

The citronella spray is not going to stop this over the top behavior.

Gina

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

Have you tried a prong collar? This seems more humane than spraying a dog in the face IMO. Although I have never used a citronella collar. What happens if it gets in his eyes?? Also, who wants to be reliant on a spray all the time. With a prong you can gradually "wean" off the corrections, and replace them with verbal commands (leave-it).

A prong would be better b/c YOU can control the harshness of the correction according to each specific event. Example: You may do a light correction, then a hard one, then a light one all in one day.

Prong collars can backfire for dog aggression, and can actually "load" the dog.

Many times a prong is used not to correct the dog, but to build drive instead.