Spray Commander, remote control training system

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

Prong collars can backfire for dog aggression, and can actually "load" the dog.

Many times a prong is used not to correct the dog, but to build drive instead.

True, this has been known to happen. IMO a trainer would be negligent if he did not try all options possible to try and correct a behavior. If there is one thing I have learned through my trainer, it is that all dogs are different. Some techniques may work for one dog, and not for another.

A prong collar should always be used under the supervision and guidance of a trainer.

[Ayoka]

The spray does not get into their eyes as it sprays under their chin the weight of the "box" makes it hang just iunder the chin. There is also a scentless version of the filler?

[Lola B Marie]

We must have the scentless version because I have yet to smell it. We tested it before using it and it just seemed like water to me.
Gina, I still think Bark Busters was a wonderful experience. The people who used them after Lola, were very pleased as well and the trainer never had to return. Lola learned excellent manners from them. She is very well behaved in every other area except when she sees another dog. When the bell rings, she barks and will calm down and then sit and wait for direction. When she is around children,she responds to Leave it, immediately, especially if they drop a toy or food. The mailman will stop to pet her and she will sit nicely. The dog aggression on the other hand, is just vile. If she is in the car with me and happens to see another dog, it's worse than ever until I can pull away. With her spray collar on she is much more focused on me. If she sees the remote in my hand, she sits and if I don't or can't get her attention she gets a spray.
She wore a prong collar for several months. One of her trainers showed us the correct way to use it. It never slowed down her dog aggression and we were afraid she was going to really hurt herself. We went to a choker and now have her on a half choke.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

if you read her post the dog bit her son right through his thumb while she was in a frenzy.

Gina

i read her posts when her son got bit while she was in her frenzie has nothing to do at all about being people aggressive the dog simply unloaded this happens quite a bit and has absolutly nothing to do with people aggression

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by lblax

i read her posts when her son got bit while she was in her frenzie has nothing to do at all about being people aggressive the dog simply unloaded this happens quite a bit and has absolutly nothing to do with people aggression

Absolutely correct, this is simply redirected aggression and it happens often with dogs who are not the clearest in the head, or when dogs have worked themselves into a dither. My oldest girl is famous for this; bark at window, get hyped up, bite dog on neck standing next to her because it's the closest thing to release that energy on. Son was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is why keeping the dog from getting hyped up in the first place is job one, as lblax has explained very clearly in this thread. If you know 'where' your dog's threshold is (the line of demarkation, so to speak), and you should if you own a dog, then you know where the "breaking point" of no return is. The dog should be trained within it's threshold first, learning control and attention on the handler. Then the stakes are upped. This dog simply needs to go back in training to fix the holes.

I agree with the opinion of finding a different trainer.

[lblax]

if you have truly tried working the dog 1st at long distances away from dogs and you have truly tried redirecting her and correcting her before she goes into a frenzie(after it starts its to late for anyone) and you have exausted you trainers capabilities to its fullest. you have to remember that sometimes dog aggression cannot be fixed (however in your case i believe it is because of your nerve /poor timing and inadvertainly rewarding for bad behavior) and truly dogs dont have to like other dogs however if your going to take yours out in public it must get to the point to where at least you can control it.it has been mentioned before that prong collars are used at times to stimulate drive (this is true ) butthey also can if done correctly break almost any bad behaviour. while i believe in motivational and training within the drives there are some dogs and some behaviours that while i hate to say this have to be broken(when it gets to this point it is usually because of previous mistakes by trainers or handlers) if youve truly exausted all your choices then that leaves 3 choices 1. never take your dog where they will be in contact with other dogs 2. try to find a local sch. club willing to help you out with this(club not a trainer) dog aggression is something most clubs have experiance in handling with many high drive dogs. 3. back tie your dog to somethiong he can not move attach the back tie to a prong collar put another prong collar(if one doesnt work you may need to put 2 and have 2 handler) attache a line long enough that the dog cant get to you again start with another dog in the distance as soon as your dog sees the other start with no no no or leave it slow and calm if he remains calm praise from a distance throw some treats to him (dont approach the dog) if your dog immediatly gos off on the other dog not only will he corect himself on the lunge you need to hammer him with hard corrections basically until he decides this behaviour is not worth goeing through this. if he calms after corrections (regardless of how long it take) do not praise him praise him only if he doesnt react.,
keep working this and when he accepts the presence of a dog at one distance then next session move the dog closer and closer. i canty stress the importance of the 1st time he doesnt react of the great amoun of praise you need to give him praise him release him and take him somewhere and play then for a favorite treat in the car. you have a serious problem with your dog and by putting your trust in a citronella device make it even more dangerous, in the world of dogs sometimes it isnt alway pretty the things that must be done and if youve truly exhausted all other outlets you dont have much choices if you wanna keep your dog.

[AngelBunny]

lblax, your post hit the nail on the head. Your comments are profound and insightful.

I hope the OP reads them and takes them to heart. What she's doing is merely applying a band aide.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by lblax

i read her posts when her son got bit while she was in her frenzie has nothing to do at all about being people aggressive the dog simply unloaded this happens quite a bit and has absolutly nothing to do with people aggression

If you had bothered to read any of the OP's past posts, you will see that the dog has major aggression problems...with people in her own family and with other dogs.
Not two months ago the OP posted how the dog was guarding her own vomit and the owner was afraid she was going to be bitten.

There is alot more going on with this dog...behavior wise.

Guess...I must have had poor Rottweilers for all of these years?....not one has bitten anyone, even when in prey mode.

Gina

[lblax]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

If you had bothered to read any of the OP's past posts, you will see that the dog has major aggression problems...with people in her own family and with other dogs.
Not two months ago the OP posted how the dog was guarding her own vomit and the owner was afraid she was going to be bitten.

There is alot more going on with this dog...behavior wise.

Guess...I must have had poor Rottweilers for all of these years?....not one has bitten anyone, even when in prey mode.

Gina

well im really not about to to go back and resurche all of peoples posts every time they post something and even guarding vomit doesnt make it people aggressive

Guess...I must have had poor Rottweilers for all of these years?....not one has bitten anyone, even when in prey mode.

well more than likely you havent had a true working dog of any sort and probably have not worked a dog in any situations where the dogs drives are worked so high that it unloads its frustraions it has nothing to do with aggression towards what gets the brunt of its unload when it happens. i am sure you have had many fine pet rottweilers but in reality most people have never seen a rott(or any working breed) that is truly bred to work with lots of drive let alone owned one.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

There is alot more going on with this dog...behavior wise.

It's all in the quality of the leadership. Bad leader/handler usually equals bad dog.

[Lola B Marie]

Iblax, I do thank you for your support and positive suggestions, all things I will eventually have to put into a program if this spray collar does not work. Lola is a very troubled dog. She was very sick for the first 18 months of her life. She had severe stomach problems and is still on meds 3xdaily. She had to be fed and hydrated round the clock for the first year. No one ever thought she would make it. Her vet worked with us and saw her every week for a year. I followed every word of his advice and as she slowly began to improve and hold her weight, we knew she would not die. Because of all the illness, she never learned proper behavior and was only socialized briefly while in and out of puppy classes. We tried to catch her up with a private trainer, Bark Busters, and a trainer from the vet's office. All agreed that she is not wired right. An evaluation of her personality was done and medication was offered. She does try to be a good girl. Yes she does guard her vomit but, it's the only thing that's not a NILIF. It smelled like food so she was unclear about guarding it. A good trade up now works if she does vomit.
The spray collar is working well. She saw the vet this am for nails and he was so proud of her. When she saw one of his little dogs in the office, she wanted to get it but, kept looking at the remote in my hand and just sat nicely.
I am not under any illusions that this will be a cure but for now, it's a nice behavior break for the entire family.
To all responding posters, thanks for taking an interest in our situation. I really appreciate everything. I just love this dog so much, and want her to be the best rottie possible.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

Iblax, I do thank you for your support and positive suggestions, all things I will eventually have to put into a program if this spray collar does not work. Lola is a very troubled dog. She was very sick for the first 18 months of her life. She had severe stomach problems and is still on meds 3xdaily. She had to be fed and hydrated round the clock for the first year. No one ever thought she would make it. Her vet worked with us and saw her every week for a year. I followed every word of his advice and as she slowly began to improve and hold her weight, we knew she would not die. Because of all the illness, she never learned proper behavior and was only socialized briefly while in and out of puppy classes. .

these are all heart warming excuses but just that excuses the spray collar wont work long term and you would be a fool to trust her off leash anywhere with it. you have 2 choices break the behavior or if the vet really said shes wired wrong then i would suggest putting her down.

[Rottlva]

Firstly, I think that Larry's post made a good deal of sense. After having a softer, lower drive rottweiler, and now owning a tougher very high drive rottweiler, I understand the level of committment in owning and training such a dog....

I wrote a response back in August that I had wanted to share, that is similar to Larry's post re: having the dog on the pole, but the pole is a person instead. Here it is.....

Although I don't post nearly as much as I would like too, I really wanted to comment on this.

A behavior only continues when it is reinforced. There are many different things that are reinforcing to dogs, food, absence of a correction, praise, toys, distance (from the thing frightening them), play, etc.

It sounds as though you have tried many of these things. While I like Patricia McConnel's auto watch alot, it takes so long to actually get to the point where you are passing other dogs close up, and if done incorrectly can reinforce the aroused behavior.

I like to think of aggression in combination with arousal. When a dog agresses, there are a number of hormones released to support the actions needed to aggress. We've all been in situations where we've been aroused, felt the need to defend ourselves. It is a horrible feeling. So, aggression in and of itself is not a good feeling to the dog. Ultimately, the dog would prefer not to aggress.

I am going somewhere with this. Ultimately all dogs that aggress are acting out of fear, resource guarders are afraid you are going to take their prescious things, dog aggressive dogs worry about the approach, status, are social guffas, and can't communicate their messages properly, fear aggressive dogs are fearful of whatever. All together, these dogs are using the aggressive behaviors to ask for DISTANCE. "Please, back away, this situation is uncomfortable".

Have you ever thought of using distance as a reward???? This is similar to Ian Dunbar's treat and retreat method for dogs scared of strangers. Essentially you take whatever the dog is afraid of , lets say people. THe dog will have a distance that it won't react, and a place where it will react. Your responsiblity it to find that line. March right over the line, so you are going beyond the dog's threshold. THe dog will lunge, bark, do it's aggressive displays. You will wait. Dog will eventually stop, give a calming signal, some positive behaivor. AT that minute, the stranger walks away...BAM... calm behaivor gives me the distance that I want!!!!! Next time, same thing..... wait for that calm behavior.... BAM again!!! Read the distance is the reinforcer, nothing else!!

Obviously this needs to be done in different situations with different people, dogs, whatever before the dog will begin to generalize, but I have witnessed this work with reactive dogs, stranger, dog aggressive dogs, and have seen video with it being used on feral cats. All with tremendous success. Again, Please don't try this at home, but a little food for thought.

A few more things. A dog that is allowed to aggress and release all of those hormones will be in a heightened state of reactivity for awhile. I am drawing a blank of the author's name, but the book title is "Rehabilitating your reactive dog". Anyhow she describes it as being in a car accident. Days after your car accident you are more likely to react to simple stuff, just because you are on edge due to those hormones that were released after your accident still circulating around. Perhaps allowing your dog some time off from all of this aggression work will help her to settle those hormones, and you can give her a clean hormone slate.

I feel your frustration, I truly do. Remember that for each and every dog that your dog sees, there are different parameters that you must work with. Each distance might be slightly different, postures may change, arrousal levels might be different. Making sure that YOU and your trainer are controling the siutation is paramount. Allowing that behvior to be reinforced either negatively or positively is not good.

I hope that post was of some help. I really do not feel all is lost with this dog, but I do feel that alot of people have done her wrong, thus setting you back further.

[hennie400]

I agree with the people who have told you that you should be working and rewarding good behaviour from the distance that the dog is comfortable.

Everytime you let your dog get into a frenzy you are reinforcing the aggression and strengthening the neural pathways for that reaction.

With my dog aggresive dog I found a trainer (and it took several) who really understood the problem and under her guidance we made a lot of progress. It took 12 months of work and you cant rush and the training is ongoing. Timing and distance is everything.

Eventually I was able to walk my dog past dogs going crazy from behind a fence, dogs passing within a metre on a lead and she even came to accept smaller dogs saying hello as long as they didnt get in her face. I would never entirely trust her, so management was ongoing but it became manageable.

The citronella collar was something I tried to start off with but it wasnt really solving the problem.

[Cherry Heart]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

When she saw one of his little dogs in the office, she wanted to get it but, kept looking at the remote in my handand just sat nicely.

I think this may be a problem. This sounds as if she is collar wise. She knows that remote makes the spray and what if you don't have the remote? One lady said that in order to keep her dog from being collar wise she would put the E-collar on the dog for a couple weeks without EVER using it. Then she got a second collar (I beleive in her case a fur saver since it can be used in shows/trials ect) and put that one on the dog any time she was going to USE the stim/spray. Make sure the dog does NOT see the remote. Keep your hand with the remote in your pocket so the dog thinks it comes from the collar. I will say she was not using it for aggression. I would also worry about running out of the spray. One lady in our obedience class had a citronella BARK collar for when she was not home to keep the dog quiet. She found that when she left for work EACH DAY the dog would shut it's eyes, hold it's head back and then bark like mad to EMPTY the collar within the first hour. Then it could run and bark all it wanted because it KNEW the spray was all gone for the rest of the day. I know she cant empty it on her own since you have the button, but I hope you never find yourself at the beach running on empty.