Am I doing the right thing? 8 1/2 mos. on a prong

[Maxxx]

I got Max fitted with a prong this past Sat because he likes to spend his time in class playing with the other dogs.

I had him on a martingale for about 2-3 weeks, but then noticed last Monday, he really doesn't mind being strangled and will continue to choke himself out and nothing I can do, no toy, no food, will get his attention back to me. I've been making the "ack" sounds to get his attention in class when he looks at other dogs and sometimes it works to redirect his attention back to me, sometimes it doesn't. It's those times that it doesn't that I considered putting him on a prong.

Last Monday, I hurt my knee in class because Max was just not paying any attention to anything except wanting to play with the other dogs. He'd do a command, then want to play. I'd manage to get his attention back, make him do something else and then he'd be off wanting to play again.

Have I failed him? Ever since we brought him home, I've been diligent with training him. Everyday, short sessions, working the commands into daily activities, making things fun. We never stopped classes except for 3 weeks around Christmas. But the past 2 weeks have been difficult. He's much more easily distracted now. I know that's in part to him being an adolescent male and it'll pass. But in the meantime, am I doing the right thing by putting him on a prong?

I've asked the OB trainer and she's fine with Max being on a prong. Like I've mentioned before, they advocate the flat buckle. We've got 3 more classes and then I'm switching to SchH. That's where I got him fitted.

I've been reading all the different threads about prongs (pros and cons and whys) and I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing and not taking the easy way out.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give you all some background information that went into me making the decision.

PS - He does love his prong though. It's only been 2 days, but I've tried to make the prong fun since we got it and yesterday, when he heard hubby clinking the metal collar while examining it, he came bounding up to him to see what fun he was going to have.

[Ayoka]

I won't comment on the prong as I have never used one no matter what collar you use, I have a suggestion on managing him in class.

Your description of not being able to get his attention makes me think that he's way over stimulated. Your guy is very much still young and a class setting has TONS of distractions. I have a dog that can get overstimulated near other dogs (especially moving ones) and I find that in class, it helps to give myself some distance from other dogs/handlers and move closer as he is better able to ignore those particular dogs. Right now we are taking classes/practicing in a horse arena so there's lots of space.

[Maxxx]

Hi Ayoka, I do try to keep as far away from the other dogs as possible, but the ring is small. I'm assuming it's a regulation OB ring, if there is such a thing (to give you an idea of the space I'm working with). I'm usually tucked in the corner with Max's back to the other pups and that does work sometimes, but sometimes, more often now, he'll fight to turn around so he can watch the other dogs. And he'll keep fighting to turn around no matter what I do. He'll eventually face the way I'm asking him to, I don't give up on that, and after he does one command, will attempt to turn around again.

What's worse is the trainer asks one dog to perform a heel around the other dogs who are all practising the watch me command in the middle. That's how I hurt my knee. I'm thinking tonight, I'll practice watch me standing beside him, holding onto his leash. They want us to stand on the leash and hold out our arms and wave them around to create a distraction and reward when your pup's looking at you and not your hands, but Max is just too distracted by the other dog heeling and I need to hold onto the leash I'm thinking. I do want to participate in the exercises, but I'm thinking I really need to do what works for Max and not what the trainers want.

Now a horse arena would be amazing for Max!!

[Maxxx]

Should I try it again tonight with the martingale and just have the prong on stand by? I have no intention of correcting him unless he doesn't look at me when I ask him to. That will be the only time I correct, or if he goes to play with another dog. I'm hoping to catch him before he goes though.

Also, I don't think the instructor is very experienced with harder dogs. Which is hard for me to imagine since she's been doing OB since 1995 and somewhere in there, started to teach. So I guess I assumed she's "seen them all". She's had a top 5 OB dog in Canada and US. But she was having a heck of a time controlling Max. I could sense her getting frustrated and I'd like to avoid that at all costs until the last class on Apr 14.

While I disclose that last paragraph, please don't assume the only reason why I'm thinking of putting Max in a prong for classes is because of my perceived lack of ability to control him by the instructor.

[Ayoka]

Has she had top 5 in with any working dogs?

It's hard for one to say they've seen it all if they have had many dogs of the same breed.

Anyway, there's a great book called control unleashed (Have I mentioned it enough lately???) that has some great games for dogs who get to worked up by other things...it has worked for us and I reccomend the book to anyone who works with dogs either their own or as an instructor.

I'm thinking that in a prong he might not LUNGE but you may still have trouble with him watching you...maybe the class is too big with too much going on for him right now...maybe the SchH club will be better able to help you out...than this particular trainer.

[Maxxx]

She's a terrier lady, Wheaten and Shappendoes(sp?), so no working breeds.

Is there anywhere in Canada to get Control Unleashed? A Canadian supplier that you know of? I was interested in getting that book when I saw all of you talking about it. It's not at Chapters, online or in store and I only saw it available online from the States. I'd like to pick it up. I've been buying dog books since I got Max, so one more to the collection won't hurt :)

Right now, all I want is for him not to lunge. I don't mind working hard at getting him to watch me and developing our bond so he's always focused on me, that is one of the reasons why I decided to switch to SchH, but for right now, I just want him to get the idea of playing with other dogs out of his mind.

[Ayoka]

I got my book online from Clean Run but Dogwise also has reasonable shipping to Canada. It's around 10$ shipping and with the dollar at close to par it's well worth the 35$ for book and shipping.

A few of us in my agility club got together and did a group order to save $$

[jlhnokc]

I also ordered this book because everyone kept mentioning it (Ayoka, you should be getting paid for their advertising!!!) and it's wonderful! Now mind you, I'm only on the first night, but so far it's been very interesting and makes perfect sense.

[brunie's mom]

He's a young dog, working in a tight space...it's hard to keep his attention.
All the classes I've ever taken were outside or in big arenas...and what I've done if the dog got too focused on another dog...or too ansty and wanting to play...was just walk them out of the certain area...and do our work away from all of the commotion.

I think you will have better luck with an instructor that has working breeds. I would put the prong on him...he's big and he's strong now...and it's not worth you getting hurt because the dog takes you off your feet.

When Baxter was about 9 months old (around 90 lbs)...he thought it might be fun to lunge at passing cars when we were out for a walk on our country road. There was no way...that a martingale collar was enough for him ...or for me walking on an icy country road. I bought a prong collar....fitted it right...and a couple of good self corrections and he was good to go. Never did it again. Never have used the prong again. I could have worked slowly on it with only positives...but I thought I might break a leg before he learned.

Things will get better...he's just starting his teen phase.

Gina

[Maxxx]

Thanks Ayoka! I just put my order in. Just as an FYI.... Clean Run was going to charge $17.30 for shipping and Dogwise only charged $8.95. I just found that interesting :)

[alice's mommy]

I put Arthur on the prong just last week during class. I literally got a foot cramp from having to hold him back when the other dogs were moving around or getting close to him! He's about 70 pounds, so I was working up a bloody sweat during class. Anyways, the instructor fitted him with the prong and walked him by the other dogs to show how to correct him, praise him, etc.., and it worked wonders! He was much easier to handle in class and seemed to know the physical limitations of where he should be in regards to proximity to me.

I felt the same way, though, like I was giving up too soon. But when the other dogs are so close (small room, we don't have big places for classes) and so much SMALLER than Arthur, and when the other owners are all doing that annoying baby-talk to their dogs and not actually keeping control of them....well, it just made for a more difficult task for me to keep Arthur controlled. :)

[Zumie05]

I feel for ya! I remember you telling my your story in another thread about how your guy hurt your knee.

My dog is very much the same way in class (no focus, excitable, not listening!). I put a prong on him last Thursday, and woah what a difference. It isn't a tool that shuts your dog down. My trainer walked him around the room with it on and even after corrections he still had high spirits (tail up and wagging, happy panting) but he was following her without tugging to the end of the lead. She also mentioned to tone down the praise, as she noticed that if she told him "good boy" too exciteably that he went haywire lol.

I also have to say that I was using a squirt bottle to help get his focus off of excitable things in class that would make him bark. But that may not be the best choice because I've been told that it gets the dog to stop paying attention to whats going on, but also to you. It is just hard for me to quit the bottle because at least while sitting in my seat nothing (not even a pinch collar correction or a treat) worked for making him look away from a distraction that was making him bark. My arena too isn't large enough to move around and the nearest dog on both sides of your seat is about 4 - 5 feet away.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Maxxx

I'm usually tucked in the corner with Max's back to the other pups and that does work sometimes, but sometimes, more often now, he'll fight to turn around so he can watch the other dogs. And he'll keep fighting to turn around no matter what I do.

Having his back to the other dogs increases his anxiety. I would do it the other way around, you with your back to the other dogs, and him facing you (and the other dogs). I've found it much easier to handle my dog this way at times when distractions are high enough to give her some anxiety. It will also be easier for him to remain stationary and comply with a watch me command, even if only for a second or two at a time. He is also in a more secure position if you are between him and the other dogs.

We had an incident at Chili's agility class where a large dog went after a little Papillon. The little dog was screaming his head off (he wasn't hurt, just scared), and it was such a prey sound that my concern was for my dog not to become a part of it in any way, even if only by a bark and lunge. I put my back to the meyley, with her in a sit smack in front of me and just kept saying "watch me" and spitting treats at her. She did watch them, and she did watch me, too. She stayed put and it worked out just fine. I was so very proud of her for maintaining her composure as well as she did. Had she been placed with her back to them, it would have been far too difficult for her to remain still.

Originally Posted by Maxxx

What's worse is the trainer asks one dog to perform a heel around the other dogs who are all practising the watch me command in the middle....They want us to stand on the leash and hold out our arms and wave them around to create a distraction and reward when your pup's looking at you and not your hands, but Max is just too distracted.

Is there any reason you could not give him more distance and work OUTSIDE the ring until he's more comfortable? It sounds to me like he really needs more distance for for the time being.

[Ayoka]

moondog what you are talking is basically one of the games in CU...some dogs ARE anxious around other dogs and "letting" them check out and then check back in to you for a treat is a way to make the other dogs that CAUSE anxiety be a great forbearer of god things from YOU!


jlhnokc, the book, was one of those lightbulb moments for me and has really helped me think about things differently and adjust my "plan" accordingly...i sometimes think that things would be a lot easier for some people and some dogs if we could all have those moments from time 2 time.

[jlaack]

What's worse is the trainer asks one dog to perform a heel around the other dogs who are all practising the watch me command in the middle. That's how I hurt my knee. I'm thinking tonight, I'll practice watch me standing beside him, holding onto his leash. They want us to stand on the leash and hold out our arms and wave them around to create a distraction and reward when your pup's looking at you and not your hands, but Max is just too distracted by the other dog heeling and I need to hold onto the leash I'm thinking. I do want to participate in the exercises, but I'm thinking I really need to do what works for Max and not what the trainers want.

You are very correct! It can be more damaging to push your dog beyond his capabilities than to progress slower at a pace your dog can handle. You want training to be challenging to keep your dogs interest but if what you are asking him to do is beyond his abilities nothing will be gained by doing so just because the trainer said. From the sounds of it the other dogs were plenty of distraction (probably more distraction) than you and everyone else waving their hands in the air. I'd also say if you feel that both of you (not just your dog) need a break during the 45 min - 1 hour session, take a break. If you miss something important the trainer can clue you in after class or perhaps you can repeat the class if needed. Sometimes it is best to leave for 10 minutes take a brisk walk outside with less distractions and then head back in.

If you are going to move to a prong, you really need to know how to use it especially because of this:

I had him on a martingale for about 2-3 weeks, but then noticed last Monday, he really doesn't mind being strangled and will continue to choke himself out and nothing I can do, no toy, no food, will get his attention back to me.

. If you are correcting a dog on a prong it needs to be a quick correction and release, it cannot be constant pressure. The difference in the functioning of the collar might make all the difference, but I have also seen people being dragged down the street by their dog on a prong. It is not using the collar correctly and can harm the dog in this manner.