Use of spray bottles in training

[Cdn1050]

I've seen some people mentioning about using spray bottles as a method of training certain behaviours. To me, it seems like a form of bullying the puppy / dog, and not a way to gain a dog's respect for you. I've also read somewhere that in a lot of dogs where owners use this method, it can create eye, ear, and nose infections. I don't personally like it and don't use it, but that's JMO. But maybe I'm not seeing something here. Just wanting to get everyone's thoughts on this, if they recommend or don't recommend it.

[alice's mommy]

I absolutely agree with you! With any kind of training, I would think that you want to show the dog what IS allowed and focus on that, not just on punishing the dog for unwanted behaviours.

[Jaidann]

Don't recommend it. Just my personal opinion.

[moondog]

The problem with using aversives for behaviors found undesirable is that the end result is you have disengaged your dog from YOU, which is the complete opposite of the ENGAGEMENT you want to establish between you and your dog. To have a true companion in your dog, you have to want your dog to want to "be with/learn from/look to" YOU for guidance in every day life. Dogs aren't fools....."spray me once, shame on me....spray me twice, shame on you. I'll find something else besides you to give my attention to, thanks." It's very subtle, but it is absolutely there when using unwarranted/unnecessary aversives in training.

[Ayoka]

The word for it is aversive, but I'm not sure it's any better or worse than a collar correction, oir an e-collar, or a citronella collar, which I have used and won't likely use again.

I remember one of my first questions on here was about spray bottle for garbage diving...it was actually in a dog training book that I read it. It was suggested to me that the dog would STILL likely eat garbage if I wasn't around so making it inacessible was a better way to handle it. This has worked quite well - in fact now we have a garbage closet.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Ayoka

The word for it is aversive, but I'm not sure it's any better or worse than a collar correction, oir an e-collar, or a citronella collar, which I have used and won't likely use again.

I remember one of my first questions on here was about spray bottle for garbage diving...it was actually in a dog training book that I read it. It was suggested to me that the dog would STILL likely eat garbage if I wasn't around so making it inacessible was a better way to handle it. This has worked quite well - in fact now we have a garbage closet.

I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from on this:

Chili likes to bark at the front window when people/dogs go by. I have 3 options in dealing with this - 1) restrict access to window; 2) spray, yank, yell at her; 3) give her an alternative behavior.

I do restrict access when I'm not home to manage the activity. Rather than using #2, however, I chose to use #3 and reinforce her "leave it" training, so I give her an alternative. Chili has been taught that "leave it" means "look in my eyes, it's gonna pay off, baby". When she barks at the window, from wherever I'm at in the house (upstairs, in the kitchen, watching TV - doesn't matter) I say "Chili, LEAVE it!" and what does she do? She instantly comes FLYING as fast as she can to me. I don't have to move a muscle. What do I do when she gets here? Why, I tell her how fantastic she is and I either offer a treat or engage her in a game of tug (which really helps diffuse all that excitement she built up by the visual out the window). I've given her an alternative way to USE HER ENERGY, and I've REWARDED her for using it in that way.

Call me crazy, but I'll choose a progressive, positive approach in every situation I can that actually teaches my dog ways to use what she's got over essentially telling her to "shut up" with an aversive like a spray bottle. And I've got quite a little spitfire here that's always willing to work for me!

[Cdn1050]

Moondog, that is a good example of how to handle the issue rather than turning to a spray bottle.

[moondog]

Yes. I've given her an opportunity to THINK. And for anyone who thinks that by doing this I've done nothing but teach her that barking at the window is a great thing to do because the game is on and there's a reward in it, it's becoming quite apparent to me that's not at all the case.......not ALL the time, but now, SOME of the time....she will look out the window and see a dog, pause a split second to make a decision, and then turn away from the window and CHARGE to me without a single bark at the dog. That is SUPER fantastic and boy does she get a SUPER reward when she does that.

Aversives are easy. Taking the time to teach a dog to make good choices is more difficult and yes, more time consuming........but there's no comparison in the rewards for me and my dog both.

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by moondog

I do restrict access when I'm not home to manage the activity. Rather than using #2, however, I chose to use #3 and reinforce her "leave it" training, so I give her an alternative. Chili has been taught that "leave it" means "look in my eyes, it's gonna pay off, baby". When she barks at the window, from wherever I'm at in the house (upstairs, in the kitchen, watching TV - doesn't matter) I say "Chili, LEAVE it!" and what does she do? She instantly comes FLYING as fast as she can to me. I don't have to move a muscle. What do I do when she gets here? Why, I tell her how fantastic she is and I either offer a treat or engage her in a game of tug (which really helps diffuse all that excitement she built up by the visual out the window). I've given her an alternative way to USE HER ENERGY, and I've REWARDED her for using it in that way.

Call me crazy, but I'll choose a progressive, positive approach in every situation I can that actually teaches my dog ways to use what she's got over essentially telling her to "shut up" with an aversive like a spray bottle. And I've got quite a little spitfire here that's always willing to work for me!

It's probably what I would do knowing what I know now. I have a soft dog and my attempts at using a C-collar shut him down. (BAD ownner-hits self on head with a newspaper). He too is very responsive and has learned the "games" we play are way more fun than many things he enjoys doing.

The thing about aversives is that they are reinforcing to HUMANS. We spray the dog, the bahaviour stops so we feel good about it and can go back to watching TV, answering RDN posts etc. A lot of times those "short cuts" can come back to bit you in the a**. I have a friend that sprayed her barking dog in his crate...she had to carry a spray bottle with her everywhere and keep it in his sight. It wasn't practical so she's been working on alternative behaviour arouns other dogs in and out of the crate and it has taken some time but he is way more relaxed.

[Diva Satanica]

Another forum I frequent had this situation present itself recently. The poster explained that her dog (bullmastiff, I believe around 18 mths old) had barked and growled at her, from his crate while she was petting her other dog (older dog, no longer crated). Someone told her to throw a glass of water on the dog when he did this. I opposed this advice with vehement desire, to no avail. The poster threw a glass of water at her dog the next time his displayed this behaviour and because he didn't do it again that night, she believed it to be effective. There have been no updates on this situation, but goes to show that when people get their "immediate results", they believe certain tactics to be effective.

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by Diva Satanica

Another forum I frequent had this situation present itself recently. The poster explained that her dog (bullmastiff, I believe around 18 mths old) had barked and growled at her, from his crate while she was petting her other dog (older dog, no longer crated). Someone told her to throw a glass of water on the dog when he did this. I opposed this advice with vehement desire, to no avail. The poster threw a glass of water at her dog the next time his displayed this behaviour and because he didn't do it again that night, she believed it to be effective. There have been no updates on this situation, but goes to show that when people get their "immediate results", they believe certain tactics to be effective.

I often use a boater's air horn(same sound as at a basketball game) for this and many other issues. It is a great behavioral interrupter, that doesn't leave a wet mess everywhere.

[jlhnokc]

"Yes. I've given her an opportunity to THINK. And for anyone who thinks that by doing this I've done nothing but teach her that barking at the window is a great thing to do because the game is on and there's a reward in it, it's becoming quite apparent to me that's not at all the case.......not ALL the time, but now, SOME of the time....she will look out the window and see a dog, pause a split second to make a decision, and then turn away from the window and CHARGE to me without a single bark at the dog. That is SUPER fantastic and boy does she get a SUPER reward when she does that."

I completely see where you are coming from MoonDog...She's not associating her "behavior" with a reward, she's associating the command Leave it, as something fun and positive. If she's barking out the window, she obviously has some energy to burn, so why not burn it on your terms...I'm with ya!!!! Question-how did you teach her with leave it to come to you and look at you? Jaycee knows leave it, and will drop/leave alone anything she has if I give her that command, but how do I go from that to coming to me? Could I say leave it, then come and then engage with her? and eventually phase out saying come?

[Cdn1050]

Originally Posted by kclinch

I often use a boater's air horn(same sound as at a basketball game) for this and many other issues. It is a great behavioral interrupter, that doesn't leave a wet mess everywhere.

I'm no dog expert or dog training expert. Just curious, how does this method correct a dog that is showing signs of being territorial of his crate? This bull mastiff that Diva is speaking of growls when his owner goes near his crate and he is in it. The spray bottle or air horn, only temporarily stops the behaviour for the moment, it doesn't correct it.

[Ceej]

"Just curious, how does this method correct a dog that is showing signs of being territorial of his crate? "

I was wondering the same thing...

[Ayoka]

My REAL issue with spray or horns for barking in crates is that I worked SOOOOOOO hard to make the crate a positive thing (it was not at first) and I wondered if Bear would eventually not want to go in the crate being the softie he is.

We taught leave it using a jackpot game. I heald a treat in my hand, he's sniff and paw, the minute he redirected his attention to me or looked away from my hand, I rewarded so leave it came to mean leave that tempting thing and look at me. check this site for more detailed instructions ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Teaching "Leave It"

As for teaching a dog to come after "leaving it" if you have a clicker trained dog (and click ends the behaviour) once you click for reorienting to you good behaviour - he is coming to you for his reward. Same goes for ALWAYS pairing a marker word (like yes) with a treat. You start close and move out, Eventually you say leave it and he comes to you because he can put 2& 2 together and , like chili knows that leave it = PARTY!