Use of spray bottles in training

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

Rather, you choose to just shut that part of her down and you will defend it to the death, for some reason.

I defend it because it WORKED and it worked quickly. Furthermore, it was recommended to me by someone with a lot more experience, credentials, and education than you.

Also, you keep insisting that my dog in some way 'shut down' or 'disengaged' from me, which if you actually met me or my dog, you'd realize how incredibly false your statements are. Like I said, the only time I've EVER seen my dog shut down is when I put a prong around her neck.

I also recommend it because it is kinder and gentler than a lot of aversive methods that are applauded on here by people who really don't understand operant conditioning.

What if you are outside or anyplace else but inside. Did you carry a bottle strapped to you whenever you took the dog outside? One of the main points (in my opinion) is that a correction needs to be as immediate as possible. So many gimmicks out there that can't be used immediately.

I get your point. But my point is, *convenience wise*, carrying a squirt bottle around is no different from carrying around a toy. Furthermore, since it worked a lot QUICKER than redirect-redirect-redirect-with-a-toy-even-if-it's-not-working, I only had to carry the squirt bottle around for a shorter period of time than I did the toy.

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by moondog

There are a few different ways you could deal with it.....all of them would teach her a behavior that is incompatible with jumping up.

The easiest, in the "heat" of the moment, would be to teach her to go and "Get A Toy!" (the one that you don't have in your hand at the time, LOL). I'd run with her to start, if she doesn't know this yet, while saying "Jett! Go Get A Toy!" My Luna always did this when she felt tempted to jump up and give a big slobber to arriving guests - at first I'd send her for a toy, then she started doing it on her own and just a knock on the door would send her off to pounce on the closest toy.

You could teach her "Four on the Floor", where she earns a treat by not bringing her front feet off the ground (and you would use your turn your back and fold your arms if she does). Start with a sit in front. You can use a clicker to teach this, or just a crisp marker word (yes works well). Give her a click (if you use a clicker) or a "yes!" and a treat if she keeps her feet on the floor. You are rewarding her for the absence of jumping up. If she jumps up, turn your back and fold your arms. No treat. Back to a sit at front. Again, give a "yes!" and treat for not jumping up. Hold the treat low to help her out when you give it to her. Toss a treat a couple feet off to the side to reset, then call her back to front to repeat. Ten repetitions is plenty, then revisit it later. When she catches on that it's feet on the floor that get the treat, then add your command word "four on the floor" or whatever word(s) you want to use for it.

You could also teach her "Touch" or "Target", where you teach her to touch a target. If you hold your hand down at her face level when teaching this, she won't be able to jump and touch at the same time (that's what I mean by an incompatible behavior). To start teaching this, hold a treat in your fist and extend your index finger - when she reaches her nose to sniff your hand, give her a click or a "yes!" and the treat (no command word until she's really reliable with it). As she catches on, start asking more of her by withholding the treat until she gives you a good firm nose bump to your finger. Begin to move your hand in different positions (left, right, near the ground). When she's got it, then add the command "touch" or "target" or whatever word you want to use. For the jumping problem, you can transfer the touch to the top of your shoe. To do that you would point at your shoe, give your command, and when she moves her nose towards the shoe, give a "yes!" and put a treat ON YOUR SHOE to reward her. The reward should always come from the place you want her to touch. You would also begin to make her work harder for the treat by withholding it unless she gives you a good nose bump to the shoe. This could work really well to eliminate jumping.

"Get a Toy" could be taught in direct connection to the jumping, meaning if she goes to jump, you immediately turn and run and use the "Get a Toy!". For "Four on the Floor" and "Touch", you should teach these as separate exercises (and ON leash) and then, once learned, use them when she goes to jump up. It would be too confusing for her to try and teach them at the time she's jumping up, but once learned they can most certainly be used to offer her an alternative that's incompatible with jumping up.

It's easy to forget, but important to remember, to reward for what you want her to do and any efforts on her part that bring her closer to it, so when she's not jumping you need to reinforce that in a big way to make it a more rewarding choice in her mind than jumping up.

Thanks Moondog, those are great and I will start teaching her those immediately. I will start with the 'Get a Toy' first and work from there.

Thanks again for taking the time to help with this, much appreciated.

Trina

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

Also, you keep insisting that my dog in some way 'shut down' or 'disengaged' from me, which if you actually met me or my dog, you'd realize how incredibly false your statements are.

Although it doesn't take a genius to figure it out without a visual of the physics, here's an experiment for you, since you're so comfortable with the concept of spray bottles. Pick up your spray bottle, spray your dog, and come back and tell us which way she moves in relationship to you.

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by moondog

In your case, when it's being used to "correct" a behavior directed elsewhere, it disengages the dog/puppy primarily from whatever it is your spraying them for and, secondarily, from you. Disengagement just the same.

I guess every dog is different. When I use it I really don't see any disengagement from my dog on me. He looks away from what he's distracted by, and that gives me the opportunity to get his attention on me. Then I can practice watch me, which is what I did in class last week. He barked 75% less than the first week and was 100% more focused on me than the other dogs.

A squirt in this case is the same as a leash correction. Just telling the dog "no, wrong choice, think again."

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

I guess every dog is different. When I use it I really don't see any disengagement from my dog on me. He looks away from what he's distracted by, and that gives me the opportunity to get his attention on me.

No, my dog would do the same thing if I used a spray bottle on her. What your dog is doing is "look away" (disengage from object), "look away" (disengage from owner), and THEN you have to get his attention. Why not just go get him and bring his attention to you? Why does he need to "look away, look away" before you do that?

By the time he's gone through his "look aways" you've long lost the 2 second window to teach him any connection between the command you give once you finally do get his attention and the behavior.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

Although it doesn't take a genius to figure it out without a visual of the physics, here's an experiment for you, since you're so comfortable with the concept of spray bottles. Pick up your spray bottle, spray your dog, and come back and tell us which way she moves in relationship to you.

When and if I'm using aversive methods, I prefer my dog not to know the aversive is coming from me. Which is why I always try to spray her from behind (Or have my husband do it) so she can't see where the water came from. I already said this before, of course. I'm guessing you'll either ignore me or try to insult me again to distract me from the issue. Sorry, but that's not going to work.

So let me ask YOU a question, when you're using a prong or a choke on your dog, does she realize you're choking her? After you cause her real physical pain (Rather than just annoy her with some water) where does she move in relationship to YOU? I bet she can't WAIT to crawl up into your lap, huh?

At least when my dog comes to me, she comes to me of her own free will. And not because I literally yanked her to me by the chain I had fastened around her neck. Which, I might add, is the cornerstone of operant conditioning. You would know this if you bothered to educate yourself fully on the theories before preaching them incorrectly. Operant conditioning is about giving the animal a CHOICE.

[Zumie05]

The reason I can't go get him to bring his attention to me is because that is what I had been trying to do all along before I started Gary's new class, and it wasn't working.

I hadn't been using a spray bottle at all until 2 weeks ago. All along before that, there was nothing I could do to get him to focus on me. Seriously. I remember working on walking him outside my house and there was people getting out of their car down the road unloading groceries. Leave it didnt work, neither did watch me, or getting infront of him. I even walked the other way and he kept his head turned watching and making little barking grunting noises at them. I had treats, yeah he would eat them but he just would NOT keep his focus on me.

There was another time I can remember someone was pulling up in our driveway when we were out front going potty. Yeah right, treats at that time didn't work on getting him to look away. He has a really good recall too, and at that time he didn't come to me either. It is so frustrating, and the bottle for me has been working on getting him to STOP what he is doing.

The first night of class it was the exact same thing as the two instances I had before the bottle. Way too over stimulated. Yeah I had treats, but he would NOT focus on me unless I shoved a treat down his throat every second of the entire 1.5 hour class. It would be *eat a treat, bounce away, eat a treat, look away* That just isn't reasonable. I needed a better way to let him know that he isn't supposed to be doing that.

Last week I had the spray bottle because I needed a way for Gary to understand that I am unhappy when he is focusing on other things. And lets face it, in class you cannot get up and walk away from things. It WORKED. That is why I am so hesitant of quitting the bottle. Based off of everything I'm reading here I want to not have to rely on the bottle. I don't like the idea of needing one all the time. But, for now, it is working on getting him to stop what he is doing and gives me that time cushion to get his attention back on me so I can praise him for doing the right thing.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

Last week I had the spray bottle because I needed a way for Gary to understand that I am unhappy when he is focusing on other things. And lets face it, in class you cannot get up and walk away from things. It WORKED. That is why I am so hesitant of quitting the bottle. Based off of everything I'm reading here I want to not have to rely on the bottle. I don't like the idea of needing one all the time. But, for now, it is working on getting him to stop what he is doing and gives me that time cushion to get his attention back on me so I can praise him for doing the right thing.

Oh, don't panic. I only used the bottle for a couple of weeks. She got the point.

Like I said before, the trainer who recommended the bottle to me has been a trainer for 35 years, has his CPDT, member in good standing of the APDT, and has a *doctorate* in behavior theory.

My advice is to always check the qualifications of your trainer. Look for not only a solid understanding dog behavior, but a commitment to CONTINUALLY strive to keep himself updated on new theories and research. Then, ask him or her what they think about different aversive methods.

Bottom line is a lot of people here know about the rottweiler breed. But from what I've seen so far, a good majority of the people here have found something that works with their own dogs, and now refuse to consider any other methods. Not only that, but they fail to consider that much like people, each dog is different. As far as I'm concerned, this is a crucial thing to remember when it comes to working with dogs. So take what information you can glean from here, but don't let this place be where you STOP learning.

I had a teacher who always told me, "Never write a paper after only considering one source."

I think that rule should still apply as we teach and, more importantly, learn from our dogs.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

So let me ask YOU a question, when you're using a prong or a choke on your dog, does she realize you're choking her? After you cause her real physical pain (Rather than just annoy her with some water) where does she move in relationship to YOU? I bet she can't WAIT to crawl up into your lap, huh?

Show me where I've given any indication that this is the way I work with my dog, please.

I'm not the one with a closed mind to new and IMPROVED methods, dear. Some of us simply choose not to move backwards in our training.

Originally Posted by Calin

At least when my dog comes to me, she comes to me of her own free will. And not because I literally yanked her to me by the chain I had fastened around her neck. Which, I might add, is the cornerstone of operant conditioning. You would know this if you bothered to educate yourself fully on the theories before preaching them incorrectly. Operant conditioning is about giving the animal a CHOICE.

Now I think you're blind. Please re-read my replies in this thread.

When someone disagrees with you, you are a nasty little piece of work, aren't you? Or, maybe it's just that this is the way YOU would be handling YOUR dog without the blessed spray bottle and you're projecting how YOU would do things onto others...in which case I suppose your dog should be thankful for any "lucky" spray she gets.

[Da05128]

Originally Posted by Calin

When and if I'm using aversive methods, I prefer my dog not to know the aversive is coming from me. Which is why I always try to spray her from behind (Or have my husband do it) so she can't see where the water came from.

I'm not sure I understand why you would want your dog not to know the aversion was coming from you.

If I give my dog a command and he choses not to obey I don't want him under the impression that sometimes (and I mean sometimes because there is no way you can tell me your husband is there every time to spray her in the butt) when he doesn't listen there will be a correction and other times there will not be.

I administer every correction myself. I want my dog to know that I am his leader and more importantly that I am FAIR and CONSISTENT. That is what a leader is. By the time you aim and spray a trigger you've lost the timing of your correction.

Not that it matters to you, but if you read the information Moondog and Elizabeth have posted you will find that it is incredibly good advice. I have a great deal of respect for both of these women and believe me, they are educated when it comes to dogs.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

I'm not the one with a closed mind to new and IMPROVED methods, dear. Some of us simply choose not to move backwards in our training.

So you consider a choke NEW and IMPROVED? Actually, I do believe chokes existed before squirt bottles were invented. You can trace a choke collar back to ancient Egypt. You can't get any more 'backwards in training' than that.

Seriously, read before you preach. Seriously. Anyone with access to a library can prove you wrong.

I'm not sure I understand why you would want your dog not to know the aversion was coming from you.

Because I want it to remain an aversion as opposed to a punishment. The entire theory behind operant conditioning is that punishments don't work unless they are severe enough to terrify the subject....and even then they work poorly. This is why we still have people filling up our prisons despite stiffer sentencing and why people on this board are constantly insisting that their dogs would 'run things if given half the chance' if they didn't utilize methods that cause their pets pain. Of course they chaulk this up to 'dominance theory' (Which is so incredibly outdated, it's laughable) as opposed to problems in their training technique.

But rather than just go on and on about the ins and outs of operant conditioning, I'll instead point you in the direction of the information and if you're so inclined, you can take a look at it yourself.

Read anything you can get your hands on by Ian Dunbar (Pretty much invented operant conditioning), the Brelands (They've also put together some really great videos about the history of operant conditioning and how it works...'Patient like the Squirrels' is a good starter). Karen Pryor also manages to really lay the method out in laymans terms in her books.

Furthermore, I'm 100% sure that these people know just a LITTLE bit more about dogs than Moondog.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

So you consider a choke NEW and IMPROVED? Actually, I do believe chokes existed before squirt bottles were invented. You can trace a choke collar back to ancient Egypt. You can't get any more 'backwards in training' than that.

Seriously, read before you preach. Seriously. Anyone with access to a library can prove you wrong.

I would suggest YOU do exactly that before you open your mouth. Firstly, I don't use a choke. Secondly, the WAY in which a tool is USED is FAR more important than the tool itself. It really doesn't matter what collar you put on your dog, even if it was invented in ancient Egypt, if the basis of your training is that the collar is only incidental. I'm surprised you aren't aware that the collar isn't the teacher, the handler is.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

Secondly, the WAY in which a tool is USED is FAR more important than the tool itself. I

How come this theory doesn't also apply to a spray bottle?

Care to answer that? Or would your rather just ignore the question and insult me again?

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

How come this theory doesn't also apply to a spray bottle?

Care to answer that? Or would your rather just ignore the question and insult me again?

Please re-read the thread. Asked and answered, repeatedly. I'm not the one doing the ignoring here, and I've had my fill of you.

[Calin]

Ok, I finally get it! The WAY in which a tool is USED is FAR more important than the tool itself....unless it's a different tool than the one YOU use. THEN it's useless.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.