Use of spray bottles in training

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

Certainly....a GOOD trainer has many ENGAGING tricks up their sleeves. By using a spray bottle for puppy biting, many potentially positive and constructive training lessons are lost. Engaging a biting puppy using redirection and rewards for a wide variety of alternative behaviors can establish a truly solid desire in a developing puppy to want to work with you. All a spray bottle does when used as an aversive is mentally push the dog away from you. All you're doing is telling them to shut up. That's old school, and precisely the one trick pony you're talking about. Training has evolved, now people just need to evolve with it. FOR the dogs!

Actually, the entire use of prongs, chokes, and shock collars are now considered 'old school.' Much more old school, in fact, that a spray bottle full of water. Generally, you wouldn't use ANY aversive methods if you plan on going balls to the wall with the operant conditioning.

Hey, I'm all for evolving and educating and learning new theories. Which is why in the past 6 months alone, I have attended lectures and seminars of some really well known trainers and behaviorists. However, I just can't abide by the theory that the aversive methods one is used to and has used on their other dogs are 'OK' and another one is 'Oh my God, terrible! You're going to scare your dog!' It's a kind of hypocrisy in the dog world, if you ask me. Luckily enough, it's not that COMMON of an attitude in the dog world from what I've seen so far.

I mean, think about it. What do you think is more likely to mentally push your dog away from you? Wetting his butt with a little water? Or CHOKING HIM around the neck with a METAL CHAIN? What do you think he'd fear more? A little dribble of water? Or a freaking electric shock?

It's common sense which method is more 'aversive.' And if you're going to use aversive methods, you might as well learn how to use them ALL effectively. Remember, most people heavy into operant conditioning don't believe in aversive methods at all. Not winning the treat or the praise is considered the the 'aversive.'

Positive punishment, as a whole, is considered 'traditional' or 'old school.' ALL methods....not just a spray bottle.

Much like my politics, I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to training. In most cases, I think operant conditioning works the best. But I'm not going to totally dismiss traditional methods if my dogs is just not getting any other way.

Hey, if you want to spend your time redirecting EVERYTHING for months on end because that's how you've always done it and it works for you, go ahead. Like I said, as long as it's humane and it works, generally, I think it's a positive. However, I'm not going to waste valuable time I could be spending training my dog in different areas because I'm too busy shoving a toy in her mouth every 5 seconds. Besides, what's the difference carrying around a toy for a few weeks or carrying a squirt bottle?

All I know is my relationship with my dog never suffered with a squirt bottle and she did quit nipping. I will say that after using a prong on my girl, she DID develop a certain dislike for walking on a lead though.

Every dog is different, I guess.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

Actually, the entire use of prongs, chokes, and shock collars are now considered 'old school.' Much more old school, in fact, that a spray bottle full of water. Generally, you wouldn't use ANY aversive methods if you plan on going balls to the wall with the operant conditioning.

You are talking extremes to defend your point. There is most certainly a place for prongs, chokes, and e-collars in modern day training. The difference is in the method in which they are used and more importantly, the point at which they are applied in training, not that they are used or not used.

Old school is putting a prong collar on a 4 month old puppy and intimidating it into compliance. A more modern use of this same tool would be a motivational pop on an adult dog during heeling exercises. The tool is identical, it's the ways and means that are as different as night and day.

Originally Posted by Calin

Hey, if you want to spend your time redirecting EVERYTHING for months on end because that's how you've always done it and it works for you, go ahead.

Not sure if you are directing this at me, but if so, just another example of you using unrealistic extremes to try and defend your position. I think to truly do a thorough job of training, there most certainly are elements of compliance that are mandatory and a place for corrections. The difference between you and me is not in whether we believe corrections are "ever" needed, but WHEN we use them.

When you are talking puppies, which I am in this discussion of spray bottles to stop puppy biting, it most certainly does NOT takes months on end of redirecting "EVERYTHING".......just a consistency in understanding, attentiveness, and patience. I guess if you lack that or decide it's not worth the effort, then of course you would disagree and sacrifice some things to gain another. No skin off my nose.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

I guess if you lack that or decide it's not worth the effort, then of course you would disagree and sacrifice some things to gain another. No skin off my nose.

Your assumption that if someone does it differently, they automatically 'sacrifice' the relationship they have with their dog is what I have a problem with. The idea here seems to be that if you use a spray bottle, your dog absolutely, positively, without fail hate you. Well, not only have I personally used a spray bottle without making my dog hate or fear me, but I have seen it used before with similar results.

My 'position' is when and where corrections are needed or used DEPENDS ON THE DOG. My position is that every dog is different and before one uses aversive methods OF ANY KIND, one should consider the personality and temperament of the dog. The idea that there is one 'right' way for every dog is probably, in my opinion, the most close minded and 'old school' method of them all.

Do you know when I decide a trainer isn't worth working with? When I say, "What if you redirection doesn't work?" And they say, "Keep doing it!" I have ABSOLUTELY seen people who claim that they've 'redirected, redirected, redirected' their dogs to avoid nipping behave for MONTHS with NO RESULTS. And the advice everyone seems to have is is, "KEEP DOING IT!"

Why keep doing something if it's not working? The only thing you accomplish is frustrating yourself and frustrating your dog. Why not instead work WITH your dog until you figure out the best way to get through to them?

Not every method will work 100% of the time with every single dog. Training is 1/2 science and 1/2 art, in my opinion.

Furthermore, I see a lot of times people on this board will ask questions like, "How do I find a GOOD trainer?" Most everyone here seems very vague on answering this question and will often insinuate that a 'good' trainer is someone who echoes exactly what they've always thought.

How, I ask, is this FURTHERING our education?

Not once has anyone mentioned anything about checking to make sure their trainers have their CPDT, are members in good standing with APDT, or have any sort of degree or doctorate in zoology, animal behavior, etc. (By the way, the trainer I work with now has the CPDT, APDT AND the Doctorate. Not to mention 35 years experience.)

Ultimately, my advice is to find one of THOSE trainers, the ones who are actually committed to furthering their education, and ask THEM what THEY think of a squirt bottle over a prong.

[brutus'mother]

Calin-this is clearly an off topic question....We live pretty close and I'm just wondering what trainer you are currently using with those credentials.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

Your assumption that if someone does it differently, they automatically 'sacrifice' the relationship they have with their dog is what I have a problem with. The idea here seems to be that if you use a spray bottle, your dog absolutely, positively, without fail hate you.

You are quite the Drama Queen. What you are sacrificing, and what I SAID your are sacrificing, are many opportunities to help your dog develop. Never said your dog would hate you, just that you've missed opportunities.....and if you think that the use of a spray bottle as an aversive (do you deny it's an aversive?) is better for a puppy than teaching the puppy how they CAN use that energy in a way that furthers their learning, then there's nothing else to say, is there?

Originally Posted by Calin

Not once has anyone mentioned anything about checking to make sure their trainers have their CPDT, are members in good standing with APDT, or have any sort of degree or doctorate in zoology, animal behavior, etc. (By the way, the trainer I work with now has the CPDT, APDT AND the Doctorate. Not to mention 35 years experience.)

You are way off topic here, so I believe you must have some sort of an agenda that you haven't shared with us. I can say that a degree in anything only impresses me as much as the person who has it, and the kind of person that is means more to me than any degree they may claim as their own. I can think of one CPDT trainer that I wouldn't send a pet rat to.

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by moondog

She learned it in increments, baby steps if you will. Like this:

The foundation:

1. Teach the "take it, leave it" game. Show puppy you have yummy treats. Treats are dropped on the ground, one by one in different places. As you drop a treat, you say "Take it!", and of course puppy does, LOL! Good puppy! After about five repetitions of this, you drop one next to your foot and cover it with your foot and say "Leave it!" Puppy will try to get it, but won't be able to and eventually will look at you, wondering why they can't get it.......to which you say "GOOOOOOOD Leave it!!!!" and give the puppy a treat from your mouth. Teach this game well, and every time your puppy hears "Leave it" he/she will look at your face for a treat.

Generalizing it to barking at the window:

2. I'm in the room with her when she barks. I say "Leave it!", and at first may have needed to walk up and lightly tap her on the head with my finger to get her to divert her attention from the "offender" to me. Once she did, I immediately leaped in the air, threw my hands up and whooped "YES!!! GOOD LEAVE IT!" "C'mon, CHILI - let's go get a TREAT!!" and I take off running for the refrigerator and produce something delicious for her. She joyously gallops with me, because it's obvious to her something wonderful just happened, even if she hasn't totally figured it out yet.

3. This progresses to me being across the room and having her respond. Same enthusiastic response from me (which gets and keeps her attention) and same reward. Next thing I know she's running to me as soon as I give her a "Yes! GOOD Leave it!" And we race to the fridge.

4. Now I'm out of sight in the next room. Now she bolts away from the window when she hears me, and we meet at the fridge.

5. After that, piece of cake to have her gallop upstairs. If I don't meet her at the fridge, she's going to come and GET me, LOL. I keep treats upstairs, too, so I can reward her without even getting up.

I love my dog!

WOW i never knew about the take it/leave it game.....that's just brilliant!! I am going to start working on that with Jett this week....

I am still having trouble with her jumping though. Is there a way that this can be applied to jumping? If so, how do i go about it. At the moment i am redirecting her to a toy but sometimes i dont have the toy 'at hand' and its a bit hard to get her to focus on me rather than jumping on my. I try and turn my back on her and that works, but i look stupd spinning around in circles until i can find the blased toy!!!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by TrinaJ

I am still having trouble with her jumping though. Is there a way that this can be applied to jumping? If so, how do i go about it. At the moment i am redirecting her to a toy but sometimes i dont have the toy 'at hand' and its a bit hard to get her to focus on me rather than jumping on my. I try and turn my back on her and that works, but i look stupd spinning around in circles until i can find the blased toy!!!

There are a few different ways you could deal with it.....all of them would teach her a behavior that is incompatible with jumping up.

The easiest, in the "heat" of the moment, would be to teach her to go and "Get A Toy!" (the one that you don't have in your hand at the time, LOL). I'd run with her to start, if she doesn't know this yet, while saying "Jett! Go Get A Toy!" My Luna always did this when she felt tempted to jump up and give a big slobber to arriving guests - at first I'd send her for a toy, then she started doing it on her own and just a knock on the door would send her off to pounce on the closest toy.

You could teach her "Four on the Floor", where she earns a treat by not bringing her front feet off the ground (and you would use your turn your back and fold your arms if she does). Start with a sit in front. You can use a clicker to teach this, or just a crisp marker word (yes works well). Give her a click (if you use a clicker) or a "yes!" and a treat if she keeps her feet on the floor. You are rewarding her for the absence of jumping up. If she jumps up, turn your back and fold your arms. No treat. Back to a sit at front. Again, give a "yes!" and treat for not jumping up. Hold the treat low to help her out when you give it to her. Toss a treat a couple feet off to the side to reset, then call her back to front to repeat. Ten repetitions is plenty, then revisit it later. When she catches on that it's feet on the floor that get the treat, then add your command word "four on the floor" or whatever word(s) you want to use for it.

You could also teach her "Touch" or "Target", where you teach her to touch a target. If you hold your hand down at her face level when teaching this, she won't be able to jump and touch at the same time (that's what I mean by an incompatible behavior). To start teaching this, hold a treat in your fist and extend your index finger - when she reaches her nose to sniff your hand, give her a click or a "yes!" and the treat (no command word until she's really reliable with it). As she catches on, start asking more of her by withholding the treat until she gives you a good firm nose bump to your finger. Begin to move your hand in different positions (left, right, near the ground). When she's got it, then add the command "touch" or "target" or whatever word you want to use. For the jumping problem, you can transfer the touch to the top of your shoe. To do that you would point at your shoe, give your command, and when she moves her nose towards the shoe, give a "yes!" and put a treat ON YOUR SHOE to reward her. The reward should always come from the place you want her to touch. You would also begin to make her work harder for the treat by withholding it unless she gives you a good nose bump to the shoe. This could work really well to eliminate jumping.

"Get a Toy" could be taught in direct connection to the jumping, meaning if she goes to jump, you immediately turn and run and use the "Get a Toy!". For "Four on the Floor" and "Touch", you should teach these as separate exercises (and ON leash) and then, once learned, use them when she goes to jump up. It would be too confusing for her to try and teach them at the time she's jumping up, but once learned they can most certainly be used to offer her an alternative that's incompatible with jumping up.

It's easy to forget, but important to remember, to reward for what you want her to do and any efforts on her part that bring her closer to it, so when she's not jumping you need to reinforce that in a big way to make it a more rewarding choice in her mind than jumping up.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by moondog

What you are sacrificing, and what I SAID your are sacrificing, are many opportunities to help your dog develop. Never said your dog would hate you, just that you've missed opportunities.....and if you think that the use of a spray bottle as an aversive (do you deny it's an aversive?) is better for a puppy than teaching the puppy how they CAN use that energy in a way that furthers their learning, then there's nothing else to say, is there?

I'm merely curious as to why spray bottle is unacceptable, but a prong or choke or a shock isn't. My point is they are ALL aversive methods, yet it seems oddly hypocritical to say that a dog couldn't possibly learn from a spray bottle...when even more averse methods are applauded almost constantly around here. Why is that?

Or would you rather just keep calling me dramatic in order to avoid answering the question?

Oh, never mind. Don't bother. It's easier for some people to poo poo other people's degrees and accomplishments than to it is to further their own educations, eh.

Calin-this is clearly an off topic question....We live pretty close and I'm just wondering what trainer you are currently using with those credentials.

I'm not really sure about the rules on posting names of breeders/trainers on this board. Are we allowed to post our email address? If so, I'll be more than willing to exchange email addresses and give you that information privately.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

I'm merely curious as to why spray bottle is unacceptable, but a prong or choke or a shock isn't. My point is they are ALL aversive methods, yet it seems oddly hypocritical to say that a dog couldn't possibly learn from a spray bottle...when even more averse methods are applauded almost constantly around here. Why is that?

ALL of those are INAPPROPRIATE for a PUPPY. The difference is, a training COLLAR is a useful tool to further a dog's understanding of lessons they have ALREADY LEARNED in training when used as a MOTIVATOR, whereas a spray bottle does NOTHING but tell the dog/puppy to SHUT UP!

Originally Posted by Calin

Or would you rather just keep calling me dramatic in order to avoid answering the question?

Your exaggerations ARE dramatic. I've answered your question in as many creative ways as I care to muster up. Whether you care to see it or not is your problem, not mine.

[Zumie05]

Pros of using spray bottles in training:
*Distracts dog from what they are doing wrong (possibly giving you the chance to be able to redirect them)

(moondog, you said earlier that squirting disengages the dog from you. I have found that it actually disengages my dog from whatever he is barking at or distracted by. It helps me actually get his attention back)

Cons:
*May need to carry one with you at all times
*Dog might become "bottle smart" and not respect you but respect the bottle.
*Not a fair correction if dog doesn't know what is expected of him


Just trying to put together a list here to make this discussion a little more clear. To me though, the one pro of using a spray bottle is worth it if you know how to avoid the cons.

Did I forget to add anything in the list?!?

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

(moondog, you said earlier that squirting disengages the dog from you. I have found that it actually disengages my dog from whatever he is barking at or distracted by. It helps me actually get his attention back)

Most of my comments were in reference to spray bottles for puppy biting, in which case it most certainly does disengage the puppy from you. In your case, when it's being used to "correct" a behavior directed elsewhere, it disengages the dog/puppy primarily from whatever it is your spraying them for and, secondarily, from you. Disengagement just the same.

I see ZERO advantages to using a spray bottle. NONE.

[Calin]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

(moondog, you said earlier that squirting disengages the dog from you. I have found that it actually disengages my dog from whatever he is barking at or distracted by. It helps me actually get his attention back)

Yeah, me too. But obviously, we don't know our own dogs.

Cons:
*May need to carry one with you at all times
*Dog might become "bottle smart" and not respect you but respect the bottle.
*Not a fair correction if dog doesn't know what is expected of him

What I did was put squirt bottles in various places throughout the house. Then, if my pup nipped me, MY HUSBAND would squirt the pup in the butt from across the room. She would stop, look around all confused like, and then look over at my husband who would be looking in another direction like he wasn't even paying attention to us. She'd turn her attention back to me and I'd give her some commands real quick to redirect her.

When she nipped my husband, I did the same thing. Squirted her across the room and let her look around for the source of the water. She'd turn back to my Husband who would give her commands.

Basically, it took a team effort between us. But our goal was to teach the pup that when she nipped us, something strange and annoying "just happened" to her butt.

Worked quickly and effectively.

[poohbearsmom]

Pros of using a spray bottle = cooling my dog off, dampening my dog so I can wipe the dust of him, a quick drink. That's about all I can think of to use a spray bottle on a dog for.

Pros of teaching a dog what's expected of it by teaching a dog a behavior using positive reinforcement and negative punishment, then moving on to proofing to generalize the behaviors, and then providing the dog with guidance via corrections, and yes, occasionally compulsion are plentiful. This way, the dog is learning to work with me. The dog understands that the behaviors I request of it apply in all environments with various levels of distraction, as well as the dog's various levels of drive. I can then feel very secure that my dog has learned that I am fair and generous, and I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.

A benevolent leader makes a good dog handler.

Just as we need consequences to stay on the straight and narrow, so do our beloved furry friends.

Perhaps some are viewing the word "correction" as a bad thing? Personally, I want my dog to know that I am the provider of all things good - as long as dog is working with me. I also want my dog to understand that I run the show, and non compliance is quite simply unacceptable.

A correction is an action that EXTINGUISHES an unwanted behavior. A proper correction, given fairly, honestly and in a timely manner rarely has to be repeated. A proper correction is MUCH more humane than nagging a dog to death, or being dishonest with a dog.

Operant conditioning techniques are marvelous. Water bottles and air horns, I'm happy to say, are not part of my training tool box. Rewards (food and toys), various leashes, harnesses, tugs, sleeves and collars are.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

Yeah, me too. But obviously, we don't know our own dogs.

You may not, I don't know. What you have made abundantly clear is that you don't "get" how or why to use all of what your dog *is* to help her learn. Rather, you choose to just shut that part of her down and you will defend it to the death, for some reason.

Originally Posted by Calin

What I did was put squirt bottles in various places throughout the house. Then, if my pup nipped me, MY HUSBAND would squirt the pup in the butt from across the room. She would stop, look around all confused like, and then look over at my husband who would be looking in another direction like he wasn't even paying attention to us. She'd turn her attention back to me and I'd give her some commands real quick to redirect her.

When she nipped my husband, I did the same thing. Squirted her across the room and let her look around for the source of the water. She'd turn back to my Husband who would give her commands.

While no better in my mind (if you're going to go to all that trouble, why not just call her to you and give a command?), this is quite a renovation of your previous description, given just last December, of how you use a spray bottle on your dog:

Originally Posted by Calin

I got a squirt bottle, set it on 'stream,' and every time my pup nipped me, I shot her in the butt with water. She'd give me this, "What the hell?" look and turned around to see where that water came from. If she turned back towards me with intent to nip again, I'd give her another squirt in the butt. She'd forget to nip me and spun back around to see where the water was coming from.

This is just confusion for the dog, and a great way to teach "disengage, disenagage, disengage" from you.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Calin

............

What I did was put squirt bottles in various places throughout the house.

.....

What if you are outside or anyplace else but inside. Did you carry a bottle strapped to you whenever you took the dog outside? One of the main points (in my opinion) is that a correction needs to be as immediate as possible. So many gimmicks out there that can't be used immediately.